sweet_ceana Posted February 20, 2007 Report Share Posted February 20, 2007 I think I have found a trainer so that we can start to do some hearding lessons with Ceana! I have two questions about what she emailed me to make sure everything is a-ok. First of all they have hosted AKC and AHAB trials at their farm. (Here is where I am afraid to sound stupid, but oh well) Is hosting the AKC trials a good or a bad thing? (it is American Kennel Club correct?) Secondly she said she has dog broken sheep and started dogs before. Her method is to work with my dog at the get go to get her use to stock and to have myself work with her older expert to get the hand motions and the feel down. Is this a good way or should I be starting out with my own dog? It sounds good to me, but I do not know squat. Oh and one final question. Both Chris and I would want to be there and learn with Ceana. Is that weird to have both of us show up and want to try? Would it be better if one watched and the other learned? Thank you all very much. Research is one thing, but sound advice from people who you know care about their dogs is even better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 20, 2007 Report Share Posted February 20, 2007 The trainer I went to for over two years is very involved with AKC, being part of their Nationals and hosting AKC events at her farm, as well as starting out with AKC-bred dogs. She also competed with her dogs in USBCHA trials and hosted several of those (and AHBA events) each year. She never pressured me or anyone else I know to "go AKC" but was firm in her opinions on the whole AKC/ABCA/USBCHA Border Collie war if someone chose to raise the issue. She is not the only person I've met who is involved with AKC, AHBA, and USBCHA, some of whom I respect for their handling abilities, whether or not I agree with their "politics". In my own opinion, if a trainer was "all AKC", I personally wouldn't go there. A trainer who does both can be considered to be straddling the fence on the kennel club/working-bred issue, and that would be your decision whether or not you were comfortable with that. I think the important issue is whether or not the trainer is a good trainer for you and your dog, rather than just whether or not the trainer is aligned with, competitive in, and supportive of AKC or USBCHA. My personal preference would be for one who supports the philosophies of USBCHA rather than AKC. I don't think that a person's involvement with AHBA is such an issue as AKC with most USBCHA/USBCC/ABCA supporters. As much as I am not in favor of AKC, if this trainer is the one you are able to train with and she is a good trainer, then it's your choice what to do. I think her idea of her working with your novice dog and you working with her experienced dog sounds excellent. Many people would recommend a new handler to start with a seasoned dog, just like starting a new rider on a schoolmaster horse, not a green horse. A trained dog can teach you a lot about what is supposed to be happening, instead of you trying to learn from the ground up while trying to start your own dog. In terms of you and your hubby, only one person can be actually handling the dog at one time. I think it's a great idea for the other to watch and learn (and maybe even video you, so you can "see" what you are doing and review your lessons). I wouldn't see a problem with you both taking turns at lessons (one doing an entire lesson and the other doing another one) if the instructor felt that would work. These are simply my opinions and I am sure there are others here with more experience and a better grasp of the issue, as well as those who will disagree with me in both directions. Best wishes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pippin's person Posted February 20, 2007 Report Share Posted February 20, 2007 I think I have found a trainer so that we can start to do some hearding lessons with Ceana! I have two questions about what she emailed me to make sure everything is a-ok. First of all they have hosted AKC and AHAB trials at their farm. (Here is where I am afraid to sound stupid, but oh well) Is hosting the AKC trials a good or a bad thing? (it is American Kennel Club correct?) Secondly she said she has dog broken sheep and started dogs before. Her method is to work with my dog at the get go to get her use to stock and to have myself work with her older expert to get the hand motions and the feel down. Is this a good way or should I be starting out with my own dog? It sounds good to me, but I do not know squat. Oh and one final question. Both Chris and I would want to be there and learn with Ceana. Is that weird to have both of us show up and want to try? Would it be better if one watched and the other learned? Thank you all very much. Research is one thing, but sound advice from people who you know care about their dogs is even better. Great work finding a trainer. I think folks will probably have different opinions about the issue of hosting an AKC trial. Two things to know are that it 1) supports the AKC and 2) AKC trials are seen as not as challenging or "real life" as the USBCHA santioned trials--I don't have any experience with AKC trials (other than what I've seen on YouTube) to know--though people who do know say pretty consistently that the AKC trials are not as challenging--you can do a search on these boards for them and see for yourself what folks have said. I don't know much about AHBA other than it's oriented to all the herding breeds Personally, I've worked with one trainer who is more or less an AKC-based trainer and two who are not. I found the latter to be infinitely better as trainers--both of the dogs and the people. With only one data point, though, it's hard to say what that might be attributable to. I, personally, wouldn't necessarily discount a trainer for hosting AKC trials (e.g. some people see that as an important source of income, etc. etc) if I liked everything else about their style. On the other hand, I probably feel more strongly about not supporting the AKC, certainly as far as herding breeds go, so I would look for a non-AKC trainer. I think you have to make your own decision on whether or not you think it's a good or a bad thing given the information available to you. I think it worked best for me for the trainer to work the dog and me separately. Our first trainer didn't do that and it contributed to a lot of issues that have been hard to fix (both on my part and the dogs'). We also worked a couple times with the trainer's dog just to get a feel for how it is. So, I think that sounds good if you are beginning. As compelling as it is for both of you to work Ceana, it'll probably work best for her (and for you) to have one trainer. It's a real partnership and while dogs can switch handlers, I don't think it works well to switch all the time. But others may have a different take. When I've had to miss a lesson for one reason or another, the person I work with said it would be a bad idea for my partner or for her to work my dogs given that we have really started to become a team (or rather a set of teams since I work two dogs). Robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweet_ceana Posted February 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2007 Would it hurt Ceana's "ability" (if she has any) to start out with the easier AKC and then graduate to the good stuff? I am not fond of the AKC in general, but I am having a hard time finding other trainers. (Maybe if someone know a good one in the Phoenix area they could shoot me a pm) Luckily for me we can't make any decisions right now because she is in her 1st heat (not going to breed, just letting her grow.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted February 20, 2007 Report Share Posted February 20, 2007 I'll agree with what has been said before--if the trainer is STRICTLY AKC/AHBA, then I'd keep looking. However, sometimes a person needs the income, and will let them use their facility for a "trial" for the bucks. We all do what we gotta do... There is absolutely NO comparison between an AKC "herding event" and a real USBCHA trial. It would be great, though, for you to see at least one of each for your own comparison. Then you'll know what we're talking about. If I have a good "lesson dog," then I have done as this trainer suggests--she works your dog while you learn some basics on the already trained dog. However, I like to get the owner transitioned to their own dog asap--like within 2-3 lessons. Sometimes, I don't have a useable lesson dog, so then students have to step up to the plate with their own dog. I'm not really sure how much difference it makes in the long run... And, yes, I would agree with whoever said that at least initially, one of you is the handler. Later on, after the dog is pretty well trained, it can work for someone else, but in the beginning, it's best to keep the focus to one handler. Have fun and keep us posted! Anna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn T Posted February 20, 2007 Report Share Posted February 20, 2007 Go to http://www.littlehats.net/instruct-sw.html And see if anyone is within reasonable distance from you. Then go and observe them give a lesson. That can tell you more about a person than just talking on the phone. Some of these people might not be giving lessons any more, so call around and see. Also, look for a clinic, and go observe. I hesitate to blindly recommend putting a dog in a clinic, or even going to an instructor, since many times people put themselves up as experts once they get a pen with sheep. Doesn't mean they know what they are doing. Pay attention to what the instructor does with their own dogs. That can tell you about them too. Did they buy their dog already trained, or train it themselves? Do they compete, in what venue, at what level? How often do they train a dog, and then consider it a failure? Good luck. As Robin said, sometimes you start off wrong, and learn some really bad habits that can take forever to correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted February 20, 2007 Report Share Posted February 20, 2007 Her method is to work with my dog at the get go to get her use to stock and to have myself work with her older expert to get the hand motions and the feel down. Like the others have said, if she's a good trainer who happens to host AKC trials, that wouldn't bother me so much, BUT I do question that whole "hand motions" thing. Anyone who is using hand signals (if that's what she meant) in training a stock dog is a bit suspect in my book, as it's a hallmark of the "other" venue and not USBCHA type training and trialing. Yes, we do start dogs off by using body language/positioning to help the dog figure out what we want, but using hand signals is pretty much unheard of (except, perhaps, when calling a dog through on a shed) and would be something of a red flag to me WRT this trainer. If she said you'd be working her older dog to get the feel and learn the commands or whistles, I wouldn't have any qualms at all. JMO. Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweet_ceana Posted February 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2007 ok, the email said body language and stock stick. ( I guess stock stick is where I got hand motions ooops) The more I hear from you guys the more I think I shouldn't train with her. She does have a dog that competes but in rereading she said that they would be at an AKC trial this weekend. Sounds to me like she is not just trying to make money by allowing the competition there. Thank you all for your help, I think I am going to need to keep looking. I am going to look up where those places are on the little hats link, I have only lived here two weeks so I barely even know where I am right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted February 21, 2007 Report Share Posted February 21, 2007 A few points, just from a practical point of view and leaving moral considerations aside: If this person trials, but only runs in AKC and AHBA trials, I would rule her out. I can't imagine why someone competent to run in USBCHA open trials would not compete in those trials, even if they also entered other organizations' trials. So if she doesn't enter USBCHA open trials, I would draw the conclusion that she has not reached that level of competence. When I first began doing this, I thought it didn't matter what level of competence a trainer had reached -- as long as they knew more than I did, I could learn from them. Wrong! A person who may look and sound very knowledgeable to a novice can steer you wrong in ways that it may be difficult to recover from. One thing you particularly would not want to do -- and which is often encouraged by AKC trainers -- would be to start out training your dog to run in AKC Course A trials (or other little arena trials) before "progressing" to the "more difficult" open field trials. IMO, it's very damaging to a dog to teach "obedience on sheep" in close quarters, which is what the entry level Course A trials amount to, before doing the basic work that will give your dog a good bit of experience in feeling her sheep and taking responsibility for them. It can really take away a lot of the dog's natural ability, which is often not easy to restore. LittleHats is a great resource for someone in your position. Read the FAQ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweet_ceana Posted February 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 Little Hats helped tremendously, thanks a ton guys. I had another trainer rspond to me and suggest coming down for an instinct test to see if my dog was intrested in the sheep and how she would react with them. I asked her questions about which trials she compeats in so hopefully this one is good (she is pretty close too!) What she described about the instinct test was similar to the article that described a dogs first reaction. ( I am hoping Ceana's will be ok, she runs circles around my other half when she plays "catch me if you can" lol) They do lessons on Saturday mornings, so I was thinking that bringing her down and introducing her to the sheep may be a good excuse to watch the other lessons at this facility and see first hand how they do their training. I do not know if an instinct test is a normal procedure, but I think it will give me a valuable inside glimpse before we jump into any habits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 24, 2007 Report Share Posted February 24, 2007 I may well be incorrect but HIT (Herding Instinct Test) is a "test" performed to evaluate whether or not a dog demonstrates "herding instinct". That said, AKC provides an HT (Herding Test) and AHBA provides HCT (Herding Capability Test). Herding instinct tests are, in many people's opinions, not worth the time and effort (and cost) put into them. Many, many dogs (from traditional "herding breeds" or not) can "pass" that test as an interest in the stock and following it around the small pen where the test is administered is all it takes. But, if the trainer is simply referring to "trying" your dog on stock to see if any genuine interest and instinct is present, then that would be a different story. And remember that some dogs don't "turn on" their first time or two on stock, so your dog might not exhibit what the trainer or you would like to see initially, but might after another exposure or two. As Eileen pointed out, find out whether or not this trainer trials, in what venue, at what level(s), and how successfully. Of course, trialling is not all there is to stockdogs and a person could be an excellent trainer and not trial, but trialling does provide a more level "playing field" to evaluate a handler and their dogs. My opinion, for what it's worth, and I could easily be wrong. Best wishes at finding someone who is a good trainer for you and your dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie_Girl Posted February 24, 2007 Report Share Posted February 24, 2007 If Jackson had been given a HIT, he would have failed. The first, and only, time Skip was introed to sheep, he couldn't get out of the pen fast enough! What I'm saying is that, IMO, HIT don't mean diddly, except to the person collecting the fee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweet_ceana Posted February 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2007 I am sorry to ask another question. I feel like I was thrown a curve ball, is any of this comprable to what I should be looking for, or is it the same AKC stuff just whittled down. "We have only competed in ASCA (Australian Shepherd Club of America). Our new pups we are training will be trialed in all venues. We have put 3 WTCH's (Working Trial Champions) and are 2 qualifying scores from the 4th which we hope to get in April. Three of these dogs are VCH's (Versitality Champions) so we do it all." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted February 24, 2007 Report Share Posted February 24, 2007 Run away! The ASCA trials are much the same as AKC: little rinky-dink arena courses with really dog-broke sheep. Pretend "herding." If you're going to do this, then my opinion is to do it right. Are this trainer's dogs Aussies or BCs? Anyone with "real" working BCs (and real knowledge as a trainer) would not "just do ASCA." No matter--you need to find someone who has trained dogs up to (and preferably competed in and done well at) Open USBCHA trials. As someone stated earlier either in this thread or on a similar one recently, you need a trainer who is more than just one step ahead of you. How far are you from Sonoita? There's a great trainer there--it may be a bit of a drive, but worth it! Anna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 24, 2007 Report Share Posted February 24, 2007 I don't believe you should EVER feel bad about asking a sincere question. One of my best friends has a working-bred Aussie. I don't know how familiar you are with Aussies but (in a nutshell) ASCA was the original registry for Aussies, before they ever were recognized by AKC. When a breed is recognized, a "parent club" is selected for the breed. ASCA should or did have the opportunity to chose to be the parent club for the Aussie in AKC, but they did not choose that route. ASCA offers conformation and working venues (as well as others) for competition and putting titles on Aussies. I don't believe that the Aussie breeders have ever had the prejudice against conformation breeding that working Border Collie breeders (rightfully) have. "Versatility" is one of their mantras. Aussie competitions are designed to be a showcase of Aussie style and talent, just like USBCHA and ISDS trials are meant to test and demonstrate traditional Border Collie abilities and talent. They are not the same for very good reason. The AKC "assimilated" Aussies from the ASCA registry into their registry. Those stud books are closed now (I believe) but many, many Aussies are dual-registered. They are eligible therefore to compete in both AKC and ASCA events, which include conformation as well as "herding" events, obedience, etc. As in the case with Border Collies, although the breed "standard" gives lip service to traits that should be useful for working dogs, it is a definite show animal that wins conformation classes and the genuine working-bred Aussie would rarely (if ever) be selected in the show ring. There are dedicated, "hard-core" breeders of working Aussies but, in terms of numbers, at this point in time the conformation-bred Aussie is in the majority and it can be very hard to find real working Aussies. I simply find it hard to swallow the "do it all" mindset, although I am aware that ASCA sets fairly high standards for their versatility champions. There are multi-breed trainers that are very capable, but I think that if you want a Border Collie well-trained (and yourself) that you go to someone who specializes in Border Collies, and trains and trials Border Collies well, rather than another breed. There are distinct differences in how Border Collies and Aussies work, and I think you would be best off to utilize a Border Collie trainer rather than an Aussie trainer. Just my opinion and I could easily be wrong. Best wishes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted February 24, 2007 Report Share Posted February 24, 2007 Oh, and anytime somebody starts talking about their titles--WTCHs, HTDs, HXs, or their "qualifying" scores, etc.--you're in the wrong place! Amma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zenotri Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 I'd like to hear more opinions from people about letting trainers work your dog or whether you should do it yourself? I have recently started working with someone who told me from the beginning that he would not work my dog, he was going to teach me to do it. I must say, it is working out great & I am learning so much quicker than ever before. I have had a number of trainers in the past who have worked my dog, all they have showed me is what she is capable of, not how to get there myself. I would never go to a KC trainer here. Mostly they seem inexperienced and far too focussed on the trialling aspect rather than producing a good all round working dog. They seem to charge more and don't seem to want to work with the individuality of the dog & have a one way fits all. There are a few real working people here now teaching for herding tests/trials. They seem very driven by money and teach differently to the way they would start their own working bred dogs. Since many of the dogs they teach do not have a lot of talent, their training is very mechanical. It seems people feel better if they are gaining success & the best way to do this is through obedience, rather than any natural talent. Their students feel like they are getting somewhere & the trainers are happy to pocket the $, even though they know the dog has nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 I'm curious--how long did the other trainers work your dog? A few sessions, or always? Depending on the dog and the handler, I will work a student's dog maybe for the first couple of sessions. After that, they need to work their own dog--it's the only way to learn. Glad to hear you have found someone who is having you work your dog! Have fun! Anna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zenotri Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 I'm curious--how long did the other trainers work your dog? A few sessions, or always? Depending on the dog and the handler, I will work a student's dog maybe for the first couple of sessions. Thanks for replying Anna, No it wasn't always. I think 2 things have happened to make me ask: I have been to a couple of clinics, where the trainer came from another country and couldn't bring a dog, so they used mine to demonstrate things. It was great & I enjoyed watching and certainly learnt a lot but didn't get to do much with her myself. I have improved a lot now, but I got the feeling that sometimes people thought she was too much dog for me & would work her themselves to show me how she should/will work. I kind of got the feeling that they thought she was being wasted with an inexperienced handler. Now that I have a little more experience & she & I have worked some things out I don't find it so much and when people ask to work her I just say No. I understand how hard it is for a new handler to start a new dog & agree that someone more experienced will help the dog settle quickly and am very grateful for having someone else with a lot of experience work her those first few sessions. I guess how quickly students are ready to work their own dog will depend a lot on the individual dog & handler. I have a pup who will be ready to start soon. I would like to do it myself, but know that it would probably be better for her if someone else did it. So far she looks very calm & confident, so I am feeling good about it. I guess I will take it as it comes and make decisions as I need to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 Now that you are working with someone who has you working your own dog, I would think s/he would have you start the young one with their guidance. That would be the best way to go, I would think. I have found over the years, that fairly often after the first day (or even sometimes on the first day), a dog refuses to work with me. What happens is that the dog realizes pretty quickly that if it works for me, it can't get away with taking cheap shots or whatever, but with mom or dad...things are just lots more fun. So when I come in, the dog goes to the gate and sits there. In those cases, the handler just has to step up to the plate and get it right. It makes for some real chaos for a bit, but it seems that before too long, the new handler gets things under control, and then they can really begin to learn. And it's the coolest thing to see the handler begin to *handle* the dog! Anna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsnrs Posted March 22, 2007 Report Share Posted March 22, 2007 We are in AZ and just joined. Great questions. Who was the trainer you want to work with? I have the names of several in your area if you are interested. We plan to start herding with our Aussies soon. Narita in Willcox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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