simplykatya Posted June 8, 2007 Report Share Posted June 8, 2007 I have considered your opinions very carefully, and I can no longer sit idly, by and watch the level of agression Jake has for Roy. Since human intervention is totally wrong I have brought Roy back to breeder. Thank you for your support, and your opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted June 8, 2007 Report Share Posted June 8, 2007 I read what others had posted and didn't get the impression that they were saying to send the dog back. All they offerd was advise on a situation that they can't see. You should take it for what's it's worth, not as gospel. I'm sorry that you've sent Roy back. I have raised lots of puppies with not so nice adults. At least they aren't that nice to new puppies. I correct the adults if they are to rough but I do let them teach the puppies to respect their boundries. I've yet to have a puppy not learn what is acceptable and what's not. It takes time but can be done. In fact I think puppies are much easier to intergrate into my pack than established adults. JMHO. So sorry things didn't work out for Jake, Roy, and you. Kristen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplykatya Posted June 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2007 so am i .. quite heart broken but this morning was the last straw.. roy dropped a toy in front of jake and jake went for it again.. if i can not intervene ..i know i can not watch that either .. i love my jake .. and i loved roy .. i felt i had to make a decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSnappy Posted June 8, 2007 Report Share Posted June 8, 2007 In fact I think puppies are much easier to intergrate into my pack than established adults. JMHO. I think this is true in some circumstances, but it depends on all the personalities involved. My Red Dog, who is very evil to puppies, has kindly allowed me to bring home two permanent pups and one young adult. But over the years I have fostered about 100 dogs and he has readily accepted some, and soundly punished others on a daily basis. I still remember catching him curled up in a collie ball with one-eyed shy Glynn, and how he would walk on Glynn's blind side to prevent him from bumping into things. For a dog who has the compassion of a ball of wax, this was pretty miraculous. Glynn was about 3 or 4 years old when he came to my home. Had I been in the market for another dog at that time I would have kept him only because never before, and never since, have I seen RD actively love and care for another creature. I agree that it is entirely possible to integrate a pup into the home even with a surly or downright nasty adult, but I also have to say that some people are just not cut out to have two dogs (or more). The reason I managed to bring in these dogs is because I run a tight ship and the "One Hit Wonder" (a nickname my vet gave him when I brought in a succession of foster dogs with a single tooth hole in their face) knows that after a transgression, I step in and there will be no more transgressions. But it's not always been easy and I admit that a kind, benevolent patriarch as opposed to a horrible tyrant would have made the process smoother. If I didn't know my dogs and dogs in general as well I do, I might also have found it impossible to bring home a pup with that evil monster lurking around and waiting for an opportunity to take him out. I still remember the day that Red Dog decided Tweed could not only stay, but live. Tweed was about 7 weeks old and toddled over to RD with a GIANT rope bone in his tiny mouth. RD looked at him, picked up the other end and 'snapped the whip' - Tweed flew across the room, thumped into the bookshelf, hit the ground, shook it off and came running back for more. If RD could speak he would have said something like "Hey, you're all right kid." And that was that. They were the best of friends for 7 years, until recently, when Tweed has decided that it's time to overthrow the gimpy old king - we are having some problems now. So maybe this is just the best solution for the OP. I think it's probably better to return the pup than to create an environment of stress and anger and worry for both dogs. Down the road, though, simplykata, with subsequent dogs, try to make sure your dog is really well socialized so when you decide to add a second you have fewer problems. I am sorry it didn't work out for you this time around. Is your dog good with other adults? Perhaps an adult female rescue might make a better addition? RDM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplykatya Posted June 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2007 Jake has spent 4 years in obedience for the sake of doing it .. he has done agility.. he has been in movies and tv commercials.. Jake has been in just about every environment I can possibly think of short of a cargo hold on a plane or train. (not comfy with that for a bc) personally I do not see how much more socialization Jake can get. The facts are I found him to be overly rough with the pup, the pup is going through fear period, and I was told it was wrong to intervene despite all I have said .. the general consensus was I was wrong to intervene. Roy is a beautiful pup, and Jake is an incredible dog . .would not risk either one of them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painted_ponies Posted June 8, 2007 Report Share Posted June 8, 2007 OK, I will try again. No one said "human intervention is totally wrong." Obviously, if the older dog hurts the pup one must intervene, as RDM describes in her post. The general consensus of the earlier thread was that it's best, if possible, to let the dogs work things out by themselves. Most dogs will show their teeth and growl at new arrivals at some point. With puppies, often the older dog has to be a bit more forceful to get the point across - like the difference between discussing behavior with another adult human and disciplining a child. Sometimes, older dogs will growl like they are going to kill the puppy, and the puppy will scream as though it's being killed, but there's no real harm done and everyone figures out where they stand. The problem with interfering with the older dog's attempts to set reasonable boundaries is that s/he may grow frustrated and actually become aggressive towards the pup. However, some adult dogs will really hurt puppies. If this is the case, then of course one must intervene. Only you know the situation at your house. If you felt either Jake or Roy was at risk, then you did the right thing returning him to the breeder. I'm sorry it didn't work out for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted June 8, 2007 Report Share Posted June 8, 2007 However, some adult dogs will really hurt puppies. If this is the case, then of course one must intervene. I have one of these. I call her the "puppy killer." And yet I've managed to raise several puppies in her presence without anyone losing a life or limb. Okay, so perhaps she did mark the nose of every pup in Twist's litter at one time or another.... Anyway, I certainly did intervene and didn't let the pups get around her much for their sake and if she jumped them, I jumped right in and stopped her, but mostly I kept the pups out of her way, knowing what she was like. I didn't read or respond to the earlier thread, but older dogs will often correct pups. Twist still corrects her 11-month-old puppies, and not very kindly. But that's what adult dogs do, especially when the adult is the mom and the pups are hers. But the other adults correct the pups rather harshly for rude behavior too, and I don't stop it. However, if I see an adult treating a youngster unfairly (and that rarely happens, usually a pup has caused the problem), I will stop it. When Twist was a pup, Willow, my alpha put her in her place regularly. As long as Willow wasn't actually hurting Twsit (and it's usually more "bark" than "bite") I let it go, because that's how dogs establish boundaries and pack order. It's about knowing your dog(s) and the dynamics between them and not unfairly correcting the older dog for correcting the younger dog, but also not letting the younger dog harrass the older dog. This isn't the same as preventing an older dog who is simply intolerant of youngsters of any sort from hurting a youngster. Knowing the difference means understanding your dogs and intervening as necessary. I'm sorry you felt the need to return the pup. Just remember that any time you bring a pup in with an older dog, there is going to be an adjustment period and as long as one isn't deliberately (i.e., for no reason, as my "puppy killer" would") going after and hurting the other, then you really don't need to constantly intervene. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted June 8, 2007 Report Share Posted June 8, 2007 Perhaps an adult female rescue might make a better addition? RDM I think that is a great idea for future refrence. RDM's whole post makes good since. I forget adults dogs don't all come with personal issues that don't gel with our pack dynamics. Seems like lately for us, the adults that have come through can't live with all the old dogs rules. They don't always back off like puppies either. I have a puppy killer too. Actually she doesn't like any dogs except her old house sister Jazz who is her partner in crime. I see them love each other every morning but they pretend it never happens. Raven's gotten way more tolerable the more pups she is exposed to and the older she gets. We have all learned to live and let live but for her it's a matter of strict rules that the pups quickly learn to follow. The funny thing is she lightened up when we had a little female a few years back decide to make Raven her best friend. I think Raven grew tired of correcting her all the time. Josie would run up and lick Raven's mouth, Raven would growl, Josie would roll over on her back and lick some more. Eventually Raven gave up and let it happen. She is tolerant of most pups now but not like Josie. I think secretly the old bitty Raven liked puppy Josie, but would never admit it. It takes experience on the humans part to know when to step in and when to let things happen but most of all it takes constant supervision. If you don't have the experience or confidence in what your doing it's not gonig to go to smoothly. Let things rest for now and then maybe later an adult female will touch Jake's kindness spot. Good luck Kristen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplykatya Posted June 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2007 Please understand that I asked for advice, you gave it with integrity, I know not everybody is watching the dynamics of what is going on. I weighed my decision carefully. One minute Jake is very gentle the next he is not .. which tells me he is a little unpredictable. I have been trying to keep them separated and when Jake warns puppy, I try to be there to ensure the puppy is not pushing it. This is a young pup going through developing stages. He is a lovely thing, over sized, beautiful face, and damn smart. I know you are thinking not smarter than my BC but Roy was mine and i say he was Any way .. my job is to protect both animals. And so I decided to do what I thought is best. Now the breeder has called me late today and has offered to work with Jake Roy and Myself to see if we can deal with the issue. This breeder is an amazing dog handler, and has a wonderful reputation. I met this breeder about 6 years ago and have maintained communications with this man, simply because if i could be half the dog handler he is .. I would indeed be great. I will update the forum at the end of the weekend to let you know how things are going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyrasmom Posted June 9, 2007 Report Share Posted June 9, 2007 How old was the puppy? One thing I've learned, and keep learning, is how fluid the entire pack dynamic is and what little nuances there are that we cannot see. I have an adult who is very unhappy with puppies and when I have little fosters, I have to go out of my way to ensure their safety. So, when I brought home Wenty as a foster I was shocked to see what incredible doggy skills he possessed as he fit into my pack, including the grouch, with very little negative impact. I realized that he was very confident without being cocky, he was neither dominant nor submissive, and gave very clear signals of: I don't want your food but I won't cower either. His self assuredness has truly helped Cooper who is a very nervous dog and usually goes out of his way, because he's insecure, to maul little ones. Sometimes even an innocent puppy can seem threatening because they've not mastered doggy dynamics. So, working with the pups own confidence may be helpful if the breeder is inclined to help you...but I do think you've made a thoughtful choice in letting him go back for now. Good luck going forward. Maria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplykatya Posted June 9, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2007 How old was the puppy? One thing I've learned, and keep learning, is how fluid the entire pack dynamic is and what little nuances there are that we cannot see. I have an adult who is very unhappy with puppies and when I have little fosters, I have to go out of my way to ensure their safety. So, when I brought home Wenty as a foster I was shocked to see what incredible doggy skills he possessed as he fit into my pack, including the grouch, with very little negative impact. I realized that he was very confident without being cocky, he was neither dominant nor submissive, and gave very clear signals of: I don't want your food but I won't cower either. His self assuredness has truly helped Cooper who is a very nervous dog and usually goes out of his way, because he's insecure, to maul little ones. Sometimes even an innocent puppy can seem threatening because they've not mastered doggy dynamics. So, working with the pups own confidence may be helpful if the breeder is inclined to help you...but I do think you've made a thoughtful choice in letting him go back for now. Good luck going forward. Maria He is 6 weeks, when i first met him (2 days old) he looked like a guinea pig That is when I picked him out, (not sure I would do that again) he is certainly not the runt of the litter, and I think he is going to be somewhat dominant. When I put him on his back he struggled, but I had been putting him on his back on a regular basis since I got him and he seemed to be calming down more and more. Not sure of the long term effects of that. He is last to be fed in a household with three other animals. Things are coming along nicely, right now, Jake is putting him in his place, but looks to me as if to say .. ok? If the pup does not respond to Jake's warning then I remove the pup. If it is too rough the breeder or I step in. That was pretty much what I had been doing. In my mind, not only does Jake need to be more gentle, but Roy has to realize his position. And thank you for your vote of confidence. Usually I rescue, so this is the youngest pup I have owned since I was a pup myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted June 9, 2007 Report Share Posted June 9, 2007 He is still really young- not fullly cooked even as a puppy- so he may be a little slow on the uptake from your adult dog. Anyway, it was probably good that you were able to put the pup with the breeder, because it gave everyone a time out- time to think. So, look at each issue as just that- having no more meaning than that split second in time, and be pro-active with how you handle your little pack. Many of us have lots of dogs- and some have lots of bitches (Julie and Julie) and that can be an issue, but we learn to manage the pack in such a way as to nip anything in the bud. So, while it isn't all harmony and light all the time, it's pretty good. Keep us posted. Julie He is 6 weeks, when i first met him (2 days old) he looked like a guinea pig That is when I picked him out, (not sure I would do that again) he is certainly not the runt of the litter, and I think he is going to be somewhat dominant. When I put him on his back he struggled, but I had been putting him on his back on a regular basis since I got him and he seemed to be calming down more and more. Not sure of the long term effects of that. He is last to be fed in a household with three other animals. Things are coming along nicely, right now, Jake is putting him in his place, but looks to me as if to say .. ok? If the pup does not respond to Jake's warning then I remove the pup. If it is too rough the breeder or I step in. That was pretty much what I had been doing. In my mind, not only does Jake need to be more gentle, but Roy has to realize his position. And thank you for your vote of confidence. Usually I rescue, so this is the youngest pup I have owned since I was a pup myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyrasmom Posted June 9, 2007 Report Share Posted June 9, 2007 That's pretty young and explains a lot. My problem pup left his litter at 7 weeks and I attribute some of his issues to that. Those extra weeks with the litter do teach a puppy more doggy manners than we imagine. Does the breeder still have his siblings? Maria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplykatya Posted June 9, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2007 We have opted to not reintroduce to the litter, and focus on the issue at hand. The breeder wanted to release the puppy at 6 weeks so it bonded to me quite young as it will not likely be used for herding. He has released many puppies with no issues so i am not overly worried about that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyrasmom Posted June 9, 2007 Report Share Posted June 9, 2007 I don't really think it matters much what you use the pup for, 6 weeks is in my opinion, is young to be away from his littermates. He can definitely be weaned....but the socialization aspect of being part of a littler is very important. They learn how to interact correctly, read signals correctly, bite inhibition, all sorts of good things that are easily discounted. Obviously everyone has a different opinion on this but having raised/fostered various litters, I have had the opportunity to see how important it is for some pups. Puppies do not need to be alienated from their litter mates in order to bond with their human, in fact, the emotionally secure puppy will be able to bond in a much healthier way. They don't need to need us, they need to want to be with us, two very different things in my opinion. Anyway, I don't know that this was your particular issue at hand, perhaps your older dog really is at fault...but I just personally do not agree with the information you were provided by your breeder. Maria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted June 9, 2007 Report Share Posted June 9, 2007 I would really question the responsibility of a breeder that routinely considered pups "ready to go" at six weeks of age. It sounds like an excuse to get rid of the pups that are costing money (feed, bitch feed, etc.) and time and effort, when they are really not best served by being removed from their mother and littermates for another week or two. I think your breeder might either be deluding himself or deluding his customers, but six weeks is a week or two too young for pups to "go". My opinion but I think you'd find quite a number of folks who are responsible, knowledgeable, and would agree with me. I hope things work out well for you and the pup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplykatya Posted June 9, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2007 right well enough .. It has been nice knowing you guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSnappy Posted June 9, 2007 Report Share Posted June 9, 2007 right well enough .. It has been nice knowing you guys For real? You don't like the (sage) advice you get so you leave? That's so disrespectful to all the people who tried hard to assist you. People are giving you good, sound advice. A simple google search agrees with the most recent information on when to rehome a pup, BTW: "Although puppies can leave Mom by six weeks, it is best that they stay together for another 10-14 days to learn how to get along with other dogs and to translate that awareness to a developing relationship with humans. Puppies removed from the litter too early often develop a range of behavior problems from extreme shyness to aggression, depending on the underlying genetic code." "Puppies need to remain with mom and littermates until at least the 49th day. Puppies who leave the litter too early may have problems with bite inhibition and have social issues with other dogs later." "While there is some debate on the best time for a pup to be released to its new home, it is generally accepted that the seventh to ninth week is probably a good time. Taken away from its litter mates any earlier, a pup might not gain enough of an education on being around and interacting with other dogs." When people here caution you that this breeder may not be doing the best job he can with these pups, it's out of concern for the dog(s) not to insult you. You do know this right? RDM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyrasmom Posted June 10, 2007 Report Share Posted June 10, 2007 This reaction just saddens me so much. Not because any one person, myself included, has to be right, but because it seems that this poor pup is being set up to fail when the opportunity to perhaps rectify some of the issues in the simplest, and most natural, way possible is just ignored. Maria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoe Posted June 10, 2007 Report Share Posted June 10, 2007 Simplykatya - if you are there. These people are the best and they are trying to help because they care. Honest. Please stick around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplykatya Posted June 10, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2007 This decision is hard enough with out a critic.. I am trying to keep a level head as we are very close to deciding it is in the best interest for all that roy stays away .. so if u do not mind please give me some room here .. keep criticism to yourself for the time being .. this is hard enough. Do you think letting Roy go on friday was easy and then turn around and have to decide the same thing today is all cool with me .. well I have another thing coming.. You can quote as much text as you want. You have to trust somebody.. and this breeder was not chosen lightly in fact he is considered the best in Nova Scotia. So back off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted June 10, 2007 Report Share Posted June 10, 2007 I know all the puppy "rules" about when to take a pup away from it's littermates and momma but I also happen to know alot of very good dog handlers that breed their dogs, they are not as concerned as to exactly when the pups leave. Sometimes it more of when they can get the pup to it's new owner, sometimes it's for other reasons. I've gotten a dog at 5 weeks, the mom quit nursing and they were out in the cold. I've gotten them at 8 weeks, and different ages inbetween. They've pretty much all grown up to be nicely socialized pups. I do think having a pack here at home helps but sometimes I think a lot of stuff is made over small things. Yes I know things have been proven but I guess for me my proof is in my own dogs. I think the worst age for me is older pups that were put in a kennel at weaning and didn't learn how to socialize. I also think for Simplykatya, she didn't happen to know how puppy and pack dynamics can sound, it's sometimes quite scarry for the new owners of packs bigger than 1. I would bet the breeder and the dogs, will work things out pretty quickly. That in no way was meant as a dig to SK, just a thought as to what I've taken from her postings JMO Kristen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack & Co. Posted June 10, 2007 Report Share Posted June 10, 2007 I have followed both of these threads about Roy and I don't understand why you have such a chip on your shoulder. Everyone has bent over backwards to help you; no one has attacked you for your final decision, but empathized with the difficult choice you felt you had to make. You have received gentle help and quality advice from respected, long-time board members who have been in the dog and BC business a long time. Has any of it registered with you? I just don't see what has made you put your hackles up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sifreynir Posted June 10, 2007 Report Share Posted June 10, 2007 I just read over the two posts. I have no 'wisdom' to add I haven't even got my puppy yet, but I don't see anywhere anyone attacked you Simplykatya. I think this situation has you very upset and you just a bit sensitive just now, tis easy done especially with a wee pup. I don't think anyone here would claim to know THE one and only way to breed raise and train a puppy, but collectively I reckon the folks have more than enough experience and knowledge to cover all bases. Good luck with the pup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyrasmom Posted June 10, 2007 Report Share Posted June 10, 2007 They've pretty much all grown up to be nicely socialized pups. I do think having a pack here at home helps but sometimes I think a lot of stuff is made over small things. Yes I know things have been proven but I guess for me my proof is in my own dogs. I think the worst age for me is older pups that were put in a kennel at weaning and didn't learn how to socialize. I also think for Simplykatya, she didn't happen to know how puppy and pack dynamics can sound, it's sometimes quite scarry for the new owners of packs bigger than 1. I would bet the breeder and the dogs, will work things out pretty quickly. That in no way was meant as a dig to SK, just a thought as to what I've taken from her postings JMO Kristen I agree to some extent, which is why I mentioned in some posts that staying with the litter longer can be important for "some" pups. Some pups adapt quite well and sometimes it's because they are just well-adjusted little beings and other times it's because they fall into the hands of experienced owners and a benevolent pack. But some really do benefit from the extra litter time and it changes who they are. So, as the OP mentioned trying again with the assistance of the breeder, it just seemed like a natural suggestion which perhaps had not been taken into consideration and I made it with the hope that perhaps it would give her a second chance at keeping the pup. I don't agree that a breeder feels 6 weeks is appropriate to properly bond with the owner because it's simply not true and that to me is a red flag but do agree that some 6 week old puppies are going to make the change from litter to new home just fine. It just obviously wasn't the case here and while the adult dog was being "blamed", I just wondered if perhaps the puppy was more to blame than initially thought. I do hope it works out to the best, regardless of what that may be. Maria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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