simplykatya Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 ok first day went great with Jake(11 year dog) and Roy (7week puppy) yesterday Jake went off on Roy.. sending Roy just a howling.. today once again .. Jake went off on Roy. . . With same results. Now Jake does not like anything going at his feet.. never has .. well his feet are all Roy sees.. any suggestions?? I really do not like how this beginning is going .. other than that ..all is well with Roy. He is already going to the door when he has to do his business!! Everything is good but my lovely Jake accepting Roy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbc1963 Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 This might not be much help... but my dog tends to be a "bad meeter." Buddy has very strict rules about how dogs can behave around him when they meet. He will discipline any dog who doesn't follow these rules. Puppies seem to get a free pass till about 6 months, but adolescents are his pet peeve - youngsters who get "in his face." Despite this, after a few meetings in which Buddy does the dog-discipline thing, most adolescents are fine. They learn to give Buddy his space, and he relaxes around them as soon as they stop pestering him. Then they're all friends. So - while it's tough to watch - maybe Jake is just telling Roy how he needs to act, in as direct a dog-fashion as he can. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplykatya Posted June 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 To some degree am I not alpha.. and when Jake's behaviour causes the puppy to not come to me because Jake is in the room, should I not be somewhat concerned.. The pup is 6 weeks old shouldn't Jakey be instinctively a little more tender. I was thinking if Jake growls at him again I should give him a time out?? If everybody thinks I am wrong I totally would love to hear it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carson Crazies Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 Can you tell us more about what's happening when the older dog "goes off on" the puppy? What is the puppy doing, and what actions does your older dog take? It's hard to tell from your description. When Jake growls at the pup, what is the pup doing? Where are you, and what are you doing at these times? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplykatya Posted June 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 Both times i have been on the floor or sitting on the grass with them .. the puppy gets too close to jake and he mouths and growls at the puppy .. now the puppy is avoiding jake.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbc1963 Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 now the puppy is avoiding jake.. Which means Jake has achieved his goal, I think. I'm definitely not an expert at this stuff, so don't read me as the final authority. I do think you should be alpha, and able to tell Jake when to lay off the pup. But this would take a bit of training and time, I think, since Jake is in a completely new situation. I've gotten to where my dog will listen when I say "leave it," even if he is on the run to "discipline" some youngsters... but that took a lot of months of training. I read somewhere ("Nop's Trials?") that no sane adult dog will deliberately set out to wound or kill a puppy. I'm not sure if that's true... but I am sure that adult dogs are happy to scare a loud squeal out of a puppy from time to time. I would pay attention to what Roy and Jake are doing when this stuff happens. The way I've read about it, adult dogs will mouth puppies with a little "pinch" to get them to stop what they're doing. The pup is young enough that he might not have worked out the whole doggie dynamic thing with his mother and littermates yet. (The books say that pups learn bite control and appropriate behavior from mom and siblings, up through the age of 12 weeks or longer.) Jake may be like the grouchy older uncle Roy has been sent to live with - saying, basically, "You kids today don't have ANY manners! Why... in my day... we'd never get away with behavior like that!" Another thought - maybe they just need some closely supervised time to get to know each other. My dog growled at my sister's dog if she so much as looked at him or me for a couple months. Now they can sit next to each other and take treats from my hands without any problem. They don't love each other, but they happily tolerate each other and enjoy the good times (walks, treats) that come when they're with each other. So... maybe Pup in a crate near Jake for a while, and Jake in a crate near Pup... until they have a solid, trusting bond. I'll be interested in hearing what happens. Sometimes I think about getting a puppy, but I do worry about what my big dog would do. Mary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhys Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 I have two dogs that I adopted together that had developed a bond at the rescue and get along great. Jin is an adult mixed breed and Rhys is an adolescent border collie. Every now and then Rhys does something stupid and Jin corrects him. She has corrected him for thumping her on the head while she is asleep because he wants to play, for playing to rough and for yanking on her leg while she was eating. Jin is not being mean or aggressive she just isn’t putting up with his crap. I have not intervened when Jin is correcting Rhys because I’m concerned that if I did, Rhys would think his inappropriate behavior is acceptable and that he and Jin would think that she just has to put up with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplykatya Posted June 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 There is a vast difference in age and position in the scenario I have .. puppy is fed last, is greeted last, so he will be aware of his place in the pack .. (I have two cats that get fed before Jake or Roy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplykatya Posted June 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 I read somewhere ("Nop's Trials?") that no sane adult dog will deliberately set out to wound or kill a puppy. I'm not sure if that's true... but I am sure that adult dogs are happy to scare a loud squeal out of a puppy from time to time. I have a pretty firm belief in this saying too.. and I do not believe Jake is doing it to hurt or wound the puppy .. I think he has decided he is alpha .. I have taught obedience classes and this sort of behavior has me very concerned. Tonight, Jake went for it again this time I was in his face .. had both sides of his face gave him a shake and yelled nooooooooo as loud and scarey as I could. Seems he is suddenly more tolerant of puppy. I have taken 2 weeks off to get all this worked out and I do not leave them alone or unsupervised. I really really love my Jake, he is wonderful in everyway.. He is the best dog I have owned, but dogs are not humans and do not speak english unfortunately or I would sit him down and have a nice long talk with him. after the scolding .. I gave him a few moments to be stunned and then went to him and loved him to pieces and we just got back from a lovely walk.... tomorrow is a new day .. lets see how it goes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SincereArtisan Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 A six week old pup is going to be overwhelming to any old dog, especially one who has been used to having you to himself for so long. Not to mention, the pup probably has not had enough bite inhibition practice, and them puppy teeth HURT! Its going to take some adjusting, on both ends, before they're getting along and playing like pals just as you always hoped. My advice would be to spend some one on one time with each, so the puppy gets his training, and Jake gets you to himself for a while. Also, instead of the head shaking, and the yelling, which is probably only going to unbalance Jake's life a little further, when he growls at the puppy for coming near you, or you and Jake, get up and exclaim NO JAKE! Baaad dog.. and walk away. Ignore him. Take the puppy and leave the room if you must, but dump his butt on his own without any love for a while and see how he likes it. It sounds to me he is jealous of sharing your affection, and so you need to teach him to share, by knocking him out of the lime-light when he doesn't act appropriate. As far as the pup bugging him is concerned, he will initiate play when he is ready. I would be teaching the pup not to bug the elder, too, to let him know that not only does Jake not appreciate it, but neither do you. Hang in there, it takes time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCjetta Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 When I got Hannah 9 years ago, Jetta would snarl and snap at her if she got within about 4 feet of where Jetta was. She never attacked or hurt Hannah, just really let her know she did not want to be bothered and did not want her space intruded on. Hannah learned quickly to give Jetta space and they were fine. I never scolded Jetta because I felt she was within her rights and she wasn't causing any harm to Hannah. Jetta actually started to play with Hannah when Hannah was about 7-8 months old but it did take that long for Jetta to become comfortable with Hannah. I never left them alone together because I knew Jetta was intolerant about other dogs in her space. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth G Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 Have you tried to give Jake some time alone where maybe the pup is crated? So he can have time alone with you(he may miss that) and also a break from the toddler...lol. As they get up there in age they may get less tolerant of youngsters too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplykatya Posted June 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 please realize .. everything here recommended I did, Jake is a wonderful dog, and if the puppy had been nipping him I would not have allowed it. Jake gets his alone time and walk time, I am actually seeing a very big improvement today with jake, he is approaching puppy, and is tolerating the puppy coming near him. Understand I did not hurt Jake I would never do that, but I did yell louder than normal (usually i just need to speak or give jake a certain look) and longer than normal. And when he back down, I was there quickly with praise. I do not use my animals in a nasty way but some times firmness has to be done. He was very threatening to the puppy. I am sorry you do not like the way I handled it, but I really feel it is not the time to let bad habits develop. I did not do this method lightly, I called several dog handlers and the breeder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painted_ponies Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 I'd stay out of it, if I were you, unless you think Jake is going to hurt the puppy. Human interference, IME, almost invariably makes it more difficult for the dogs to work things out between themselves. If you frustrate Jake in his attempts to establish his space, you may make him more aggressive towards the newcomer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplykatya Posted June 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 I'd stay out of it, if I were you, unless you think Jake is going to hurt the puppy. Human interference, IME, almost invariably makes it more difficult for the dogs to work things out between themselves. If you frustrate Jake in his attempts to establish his space, you may make him more aggressive towards the newcomer. I want to thank everybody for their opinions and guidance on this topic. They are all valuable, It may seem that I have gone and done my own way here but all the suggestions are in use. Thank you all very much Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northof49 Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 Tonight, Jake went for it again this time I was in his face .. had both sides of his face gave him a shake and yelled nooooooooo as loud and scarey as I could. Seems he is suddenly more tolerant of puppy. I have taken 2 weeks off to get all this worked out and I do not leave them alone or unsupervised As long as Jake is not going overboard with the puppy, don't make big deal out of it. The other thing you have to realize that is Jake doesn't want the puppy around him, the puppy has to respect that. By punishing Jake, you are basically telling him that he has to put up with anything the puppy wants to do to him. Jake may appear more "tolerant' but that doesn't mean he is. You are just teaching Jake that he is not allowed to tell the puppy to back off. That can lead to problems down the road, when the puppy realizes that Jake won't discipline him at all, and could lead to the puppy being a bully to Jake, or Jake finally having enough and over-disciplining the puppy. My preference is to teach the puppy that when an adult dog growls etc that that means to leave that dog alone, and if the puppy doesn't immediately back off and respect the wishes of the older dog, I will remove the puppy from the adult dog. I want my older dogs to realize that I will champion them and help teach the puppy that "leave me alone" means "leave me alone". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 My preference is to teach the puppy that when an adult dog growls etc that that means to leave that dog alone, and if the puppy doesn't immediately back off and respect the wishes of the older dog, I will remove the puppy from the adult dog. I want my older dogs to realize that I will champion them and help teach the puppy that "leave me alone" means "leave me alone". This is exactly how I feel about it, as well. Good advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplykatya Posted June 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2007 Yes exactly, Jake was very hostile towards the puppy, and it was escalating. Jake, is a great dog, but his discipline towards the pup was way over board, and getting worse. I was actually becoming very fearful that the pup would be a nervous wreck by the time he got to 8 weeks. I do protect Jake from the pup, and Jake is a little more tolerant as well. If the pup does not respond to Jakes warning, I remove the pup. Yesterday, Jake actually approached and layed down with the puppy, although there was a small distance between the two, both went to sleep soundly. The pup and Jake are well on their way to becoming buddies. As I said, it would be truely great if they spoke English, but they do not. I am responsible for both dogs, and I usually have dogs that are older at time of adoption. Roy is the first BC I have bought from a breeder, making him the youngest dog I have ever had the pleasure to have in my home. Yes, until he becomes at 3-4 months I am pretty much a nervous wreck about how these things are going to go. I did not enjoy scaring the hell out of Jake, and I sought several handlers and the breeder's (who by the way is the best dog handler I have ever met.) advice. There are simply times when human intervention is necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northof49 Posted June 7, 2007 Report Share Posted June 7, 2007 There are simply times when human intervention is necessary Of course there is, but punishing Jake, in my mind, is not the way to do it. Teaching the puppy to respect Jake is, and to make sure that you don't set up situations where a bad experience is going to be created by both dogs. My one BC was bad for over-disciplining puppies, so I just made sure she was never put in that position. Was I 100% dead on all the time- of course not, but any incidents were very very few and far between and within a couple of weeks the puppy realized that a low growl and show of teeth meant to back off - don't push the envelope. Positive things happend when you respected the old bag's warnings(that would be the dog, not me) - the puppy got rewarded from me and "the old bag" wouldn't escalate her warnings to physical contact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplykatya Posted June 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2007 ok well thanks for your opinion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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