Flock Protection

[jdarling]

I saw this article and would like to hear some opinions on it from people who have used both LGD's and llamas to protect their sheep.

 

http://www.ida.net/users/srllamas/SHEEP.HTM

 

Granted, the article is written by the guy that owns Snake River Llamas ... but I'd never heard LGDs causing "major problems."

 

Guard dogs have been shown to be effective in decreasing losses to predators. However, dogs do have some disadvantages and according to a report of a survey conducted by the Sheep Experimental Station in Idaho, dogs can cause some major problems and lack of longevity is an important consideration with guard dogs.

 

Jodi

[Bill Fosher]

This debate has been going on for a long time, and will probably continue for a long time. A good guard llama is a rare find. Most will figure out that the coyotes are not after them, and the instinct for self-preservation will take over. I was told that it's less likely to happen if you have one llama for every 20 sheep, which is fine if you have 20 or 40 sheep, but not so great if you have 500 or 10,000.

 

Young guard dogs can cause major problems, particularly at lambing time. Their need to investigate anything new and different can lead to mismothering. I've also heard of dogs that will actually chase sheep away from their lambs. Youngsters will also chase sheep around -- trying to play with them essentially, but with bad outcomes. These behaviors can be corrected, are often more of a management issue than an actual problem with the dog. Lots of very good guard dogs end up being shot when they're a year old because they have never been taught how to act around lambs.

[Guest pax]

Just to add to your mix, some people use donkeys as guardians too. My neighbours did it very successfully. I am equine savvy but I hesitated to walk through their paddocks on the occasions I farm sat for them.

 

I had an Anatolian Shepherd for a while because we had a feral dog and a very occasional waking up grumpy bear problem with our foals. I couldn't use donkeys because the mares hated them, and it never occured to me to try a llama, they seemed so exotic.

 

The Anatolian was fabulous. Perfect with my kids, reserved but civilized with strangers, and effective with strange animals. I'd do another LGD in a heart beat if I needed it. I don't now, this farm we are working from (my mother's) is land locked by creeping suburbia.

[Cynthia P]

We have a flock of about 150 ewes, a bunch of chickens and ducks, plus 5 horses. We have a llama named Blanche and 2 LGD (an Akbash and a Pyr/Maremma mix). We have had losses when we just had the llama. She isn't particularly bonded to her sheep perferring a higher ground and more shelter than the sheep have. She is a line of site animal and while effective on the neighbourhood dog, less effective on the coyotes.

 

We haven't had a loss since we installed 5 strand hot electric (8.6 KV...1800 J) and added the two LGDs. My neighbours farm lost 35 lamb/ewes in the same time period..she has no electric, one LGD and one llama (who is actually pretty good).

 

There are problems...they bark at night, they roam. Scarlet the Akbash, doesn't like strange dogs, not border collies, not new border collies and she really doesn't like strange people. Kind of limits who we can have look after the farm. We have had 3 lambs or ewe lambs tormented by the LGDs...mainly when the dog is between 12-18 months. That is a management issue and usually occurs for us in the early spring when the dogs are confined with the sheep 24/7 and get bored. They usually grow out of it.

 

Roaming is a big problem as LGDs are escape artists. Scarlett ran into a car on a -27C night and exploded their bumper and trim on the quarter panel...$1780 damage. Electric is used to keep them in but they seem to be able to find a spot to get out.

 

Mine are pretty good around lambing but if we aren't around the puppy (Scarlett...14 m.o.) gets tied up or put in a kennel run. They still need supervision. Introducing a new BC to the Akbash is also a bit of a chore. The Pyr/Maremma charlie is no problem but will protect the flock from a stange BC if we aren't around. Definately more management

 

If you want obedience, the LGDs aren't for you but they do a great job of keeping the coyotes, and stray dogs, and the occassional stray person off the property.

 

Here is the link to some pictures

 

http://picasaweb.google.com/Palmer.Farm/

 

Cynthia

[bcnewe2]

I have the same set up as Cynthia except no chickens (yet), horses or ducks and a few less sheep. The Akbash mix is much more wary of strangers and strange dogs but the Pyr likes everyone and thing unless they threaten his sheep.

 

They are both young so we had a bit of a time lambing. Some management and training and they’re pretty good now. In fact the pyr stole the last lamb we had born and also tried to steal the first one. When there were lots on the ground he couldn't do it because the mommas ganged up on him. The first one he stole, Momma beat him up pretty bad then I got involved and helped the momma so everything was fine. Then the last lamb was out of a first time lamber who twined, she got tired of fighting and gave one up. But....my BC Mick took it upon himself to correct the LGD so in the end I ended up with a bottle baby that the LGD wouldn't go near. Mick the BC is the boss around here, both the LGD’s respect him and me as the leader(s) of our pack. Probably because he’s was here before them and they were both babies when I brought them home. They are both about a year old and I expect next lambing to go much better.

I can keep them out of the lambing pen but haven't been able to keep them on the property. It isn't much of an issue because we are quite rural and the neighbors know they're friendly so don’t mind them visiting. They do bring me all kinds of wonderful treats home (cow skulls, bones, body parts of dead things etc.) but I go out every morning and do a collection and that's handled.

 

I had the guard llama first. He did a great job in the semi rural area we moved from but he never had to fight a pack of coyotes, just a stray dog or two from the neighborhood. I lost 2 full grown ewes to coyotes after we moved here, before I added the LGDs.

 

I think Bill's theory about 1 good guard llama per 20 head of sheep would probably work but since moving here we are growing our numbers and he couldn’t keep up. After the coyote attack, the guard llama was upset for over 2 months, he wasn't much use during that time. I think he was just freaked out at the number of coyotes that we have here.

 

The LGD's, BC's, and llama get along pretty well, The llama is much better at watching the young lambs, and I don't worry about him harassing them, I did have to get on the Akbash for "playing" with the babies but he's learned quickly what I wll tolerate and what he can't get away with. They will let the BC's work unless their intention are bad, then they just step into the way of the working dog and keep it from getting to its sheep. They don't seem to be vicious, only defensive. I would hate to have them go after me when I hear them doing their job at night. They sound very serious and I haven't seen a coyote cross our field since they've been here. I'm waiting for the bobcat or mountain lion that I hear lives close to try. With the 2 of them I think we'll be OK.

 

I love the LGD's and would never be without them again, the llama is quite the character and we love him but as far as guarding, we could probably manage without him.

 

Kristen

[Bill Fosher]

I think Bill's theory about 1 good guard llama per 20 head of sheep would probably work ...

 

I should be quick to point out that it's not my theory. Some people I was working with who were interested in returning sheep to an island off the coast of Massachusetts where the flock had been wiped out by coyotes were trying to figure out what guardian animal might be best suited to their proposed management system. They spoke to a breeder of llamas and were told one llama to 20 sheep, which would have meant 100 llamas on this island. Even then I had my doubts; I expected that they would have ended up with a flock of llamas moving about more or less as a unit and a couple of dozen small (and ever diminishing) hersels of sheep scattered around the island feeding the coyotes.

 

I had proposed 20 guard dogs as a minimum.

[bcnewe2]

I can just see Mick trying to figure out how to work the sheep scattered between 20 guard dogs. With his eye issue going on, he gets confused sometimes and tries to put the dogs in with the sheep. Thank dog that our LGD's respect him. I think 20 dogs, might be a problem for him.

Being an island, I don't suppose the coyote numbers could be brought down to a # that was manageable?

 

I’m also sure the llama breeder had the 100 or so llamas that he recommended or at least could get the other breeders together and come up with just the right amount? I can't see it being a viable solution, but it would be an interesting site.

 

Kristen

[Bill Fosher]

The island is accessible to the mainland at low tide via sandbars, rocks, and a few short swims. So they (theoretically) could clear the resident population of coyotes and have a couple of years of peace. But the problem would return. If I had continued on the project, I probably would have recommended an attempt at erradication, followed by population with sheep and guard dogs, so that the guard dogs and sheep would be settled on the island before the coyotes returned in large numbers, and perhaps the pressure of the guard dogs would be enough to make them consider not setting up a resident population. I know that llamas would not be up to that task and I have my doubts about whether guard dogs would be enough to do it either.

 

The island is about four miles long and a mile wide if memory serves correctly, and the 2,000 sheep would have had free run of the whole place (fenced out of habitations, which are mainly clustered at one end of the island). After a couple of years, they would probably settle into smaller flocks in different areas as they became hefted to the ground. The idea was to try to settle a guard dog or two in each area where the sheep frequented, and have at least one dog bonded to every bunch.

 

I felt it was a risky proposition at best, even with guard dogs, and frankly I thought that 100 llamas was a joke. I think the breeder they were talking to had no idea the scale of the proposition they were discussing.