How to teach single stepping in the weaves

[abbies_mumma]

Hi everyone!

Abbies weave pole performance is not very reliable and she is quite slow. I am thinking about re-training the weave poles but do you think this will confuse her? I am thinking about going back to scratch and using the WAM method. I originally taught her using the channel method (pretty similar to WAM).

Or is it possible to teach her to single step? At the moment she crosses her legs and will sometimes bounce if she is highly motivated.

So, what should I do? Re-train the poles from scratch? Or teach her to single step (and how do i do that)?

Also, for those who get Clean Run, if I re-train the poles I will most likely use the method (WAM and channel) explained in the Feb issue.

 

Thankx

[Kat's Dogs]

It is a little old, but the there is a special edition clean run just on weave poles (although it is in black and white). I flipped through it in my trainer's library and it looked very informative. That might help if you want in-depth info on training the various ways.

 

Personally, I don't mind going back and re-training a performance (from scratch). Dazzle was taught with the channel/wires and once she had the idea, angled entrance poles and exit poles. She single steps.

 

It is tricky and requires dedicated training to modify their foot patterns, but it can be done. I don't know all the details for getting certain paw patterns, but just encouraging more speed will usually stop dogs from crossing their paws (that is hard to do quickly). But you might end up with the hopping. The hopping is/can be just as fast as single stepping even for big dogs if they can do it right and there is nothing wrong with it. But it is true that crossing paws is harder for them, slower, and more likely to pop poles because it is more inconsistant than single stepping or the hopping thing (which is very cute!).

 

This may not have helped at all, but there ya go!

 

p.s. anyone but me having trouble accessing the thread on making equipment?!?

[ahoops]

Hi its ahoops (actually my name is Anne) here . I put a question to you guys about where to find a decent website with homemade agility stuff .I found a little bit on a couple of sites .One was a bit of a worry its suggestions did not appear very safe.So if you can help I would appreciate it .I am waiting a reply from the yahoo group to see if i can join it .thanks again

[CLW1]

Clean Run did an issue on weave poles just a couple of years ago and it's not black and white. I'm sure if you go to their website you'll be able to find it.

 

Yes, you can retrain them and teach her to single step, but some dogs just weave the way they weave (meaning their footwork is the way it is), period. Retraining them won't change it. That said, you can go back and start from scratch with a different method than the one you trained.

 

If Abbie is not reliable (i.e. she doesn't reliably make entries and complete all 12 poles) I'd consider that a bigger problem than speed and I'd concentrate on training that and then focus on speeding her up. I would bet that once she really knows her job (making the entry and finishing the poles) you'll see her speed up as she gains confidence.

[Tassie]

I tend to agree that dogs weave the way they weave, but also, that speed and drive through the poles will likely encourage single stepping. Personally, I like the angled poles method - has worked for my girl and a few others I've seen. The idea is to get the dog driving through as hard as possible, while maintaining accuracy. (Look at the head-down determination on Dazzle's video - that's what you want.) This can be helped by click/treat for successful completion, or throwinga ball or tug toy ahead just as the dog finishes the set, then having a game of tug.

 

Some advice I was given by a judge here was when you start straightening the poles, to do so gradually, and from the far end, so the dog is still driving hard into the correct entry, and will have the rhythm going by the time s/he gets to the straightened poles.

 

I like to train entries separately, just using 4 poles, as I learnt in a seminar. You can get lots more reps in, from both directions and from different angles, with or without jumps before and after. Intersperse that with training on the 12 to get full performance.

 

Oh, and personally, if the dog pops, I don't try to restart from that point, even though the rules allow it - I think better training is to take them back to the beginning and get the whole thing right - treating the set as a single obstacle.

 

Hope that makes sense.

[Rosanne]

In my experience dogs generally will weave in the manner most comfortably for their bodies. That said, if your dog is inconsistent or slow to the point where you doubt she understands the performance properly; there is no harm in going back and re-training. I never train for footwork, only speed and reliably, and all of my dogs (I'm training my 6th) have figured out a rhythm that was both consistent and reliable.

 

I used to train channel method, but now use Susan Garrett's 2 by 2 method (except I have them come back to me for a tug instead of throwing the toy all the time). I have found that Weave-a-matics don't usually teach a highly-driven dog to rock back on their haunches properly to enter weaves from speed, because of the stepping over/leaning forward motion that the dog learns. HOWEVER, with a dog who needs speeding-up I would certainly think it's a good thing to try.

[abbies_mumma]

Thanks for the advise everyone! I don't mind if she hops or single steps just as long as she is reliable and accurate.

 

I have started re-teaching but not from scratch. At first I made a channel and had her run though driving to a toy at the end (did that for a few days) then I put in slanted poles. I started with them really really low and over a few days- yes I know you should do each step in weeks but i'm really inpatient and Abbie was getting bored running through. Now they are slanted so she is only just having to bend her back- but hardly. We are going to move slowly from here. I think she is starting to occasionally single step but because the poles are really short (they are cricket stumps) she is jumping through and above them and its hard to tell what shes doing with her feet.

 

Will keep you updated with how our training is going. Pity our camera is dead or I would video her.

 

This is a old short video of her weaving (in the video are the cricket stumps I'm using for slanted poles. I have weave poles that have a base so I can't use them for re-training and I didn't have them when this video was taken).

 

link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBfH6AcSYOc

[quicksilver]

I agree with others here that a keen dog will find its own fastest way through the weaves, with its choice of single stepping or bouncing depending on various factors including body length. Some dogs that single step normally will bounce if put through a set of weaves with much wider spacing.

 

One thing to consider - there is a study out there on the Net somewhere that suggests that single stepping places more stress on the dog's spine than bouncing. Perhaps a reason not to retrain a dog that's happily bouncing to single step?

[abbies_mumma]

Thanks quicksilver but she does not actually bounce very often. It is mostly crossing her paws. If she was bouncing reliably then I would be happy.

[airbear]

My Bear would cross his paws when weaving. He hated weaving, and he would be on the wrong lead for every pole:

 

We worked a bit on motvation (channels, WAMs, made it really easy, and used toys) so that towards the end of his career, he at least was on the right lead:

 

When really motivated in practice, he actually can weave faster than Wick. Also, when properly motivated, he broke poles off the base! (he's a big dog).

 

I never corrected for popped poles or missed entries during our retraining, as that would make him go back to his slow, walking-as-though-beaten poles. Yup, in trials, I would let him do just a few poles if that's all he felt like doing, just to improve his attitude towards weaving. In one particularly memorable run, he ran beside the poles, then ducked his head between 11 and 12 as if to say "there! there are your poles!". This, btw, was after he earned his ATChC and I am sure there was more than one snickering person watching a Masters dog run by poles, but my emphasis was to make the obstacle fun, and if that meant sacrificing some runs, so be it.

 

Lou is learning with channels, but to be honest, it's not going so well. Sigh. I think Lou will be a Jumpers dog.

[quicksilver]

Lou is learning with channels, but to be honest, it's not going so well. Sigh. I think Lou will be a Jumpers dog.

 

Don't ever give up on it - and take the transition from channels to inline weaves very very slowly. My young collie bitch was half a year into her competing career before she was nailing the weave entries with a reasonable degree of accuracy (typical mad fast dog). I felt like tearing my hair out, her older half brother learnt to weave so much more quickly! But she's won 6 classes with weaves in over the last half year, and will now let me do things like race ahead and do a blind cross at the end of weaves for a smooth side change, or leave her to do the weaves while I move off to the side somewhere else.

 

So be patient - it might seem a long road, but it's worth it in the end. Good luck.

[haleigh]

What is a WAM?

[quicksilver]

What is a WAM?

 

Pretty sure it's the Weave-A-Matic (sp?) which is a trademarked set of training weaves sold in the US. Not sure what type of training weave it is. Here in the UK, folks mainly use V-weaves or channel weaves (with or without guide wires) to train their youngsters.

[abbies_mumma]

Yup. WAM is Weave-A-Matic. I'm not actually using WAM poles- just slanted normal ones.

 

Even though its only been a week of re-training but I did a naughty thing an got her to weave staight poles- and guess what? She bounced the whole way through with her head down driving to the end! When I have the poles slanted a bit she single steps some of the way and sometimes the whole way. Do you think I should put the poles up straight now or keep them slanted until she is single stepping or bouncing all the way every time?

[abbies_mumma]

Oh and thanks for the help everyone! Much appreciated.

[abbies_mumma]

One more question-

In NADAC trials do they have a distance test in Touch n Go or weavers? Or is regular the only one that has a distance test?

Thanks

[Kat's Dogs]

Nope, no distance challenge in anything but Regular.

 

Actually, right now, there are a ton of changes going on in NADAC - enough to make your head spin! So this is current information but a lot of things are going through the usual changes right now (like the reasons there are no teeters on courses these days).....

[abbies_mumma]

Thanks Kat,

I was trying to read the rules but they're updating it (as you said).

[Tassie]

Hi abbie's mumma. Personally, if she's single stepping with slanted poles, I'd be inclined to keep going with them for a little longer, and when you do straighten, straighten the last couple first, so she has her rhythm going by the time she gets to the straight poles - then gradually increase the number of straightened poles - working from the far end.

 

And be careful what you wish for - my Kirra just loves to weave. She must be one of the few dogs for whom the weavers are a suck-in off course trap. She did it again on Saturday - but she also did some super weaving - including at distance, with a tunnel layered beteen me and her. (I had to layer it because otherwise I would have been crowding her, and she HATES being crowded on weavers.)

 

Sounds like your training is going well. Do you do ANKC as well? There is a distance challenge in Open Jumping and Agility, and in Gamblers.

[abbies_mumma]

Thanks Tassie,

Abbie loves the see-saw, its her favourite obstacle- strange I know!. If there is a tunnel/contact obstacle next to each other she will take the contact obstacle! Gotta work on that too.

 

We haven't started trialling yet. My first will be NADAC but I will be doing both NADAC and ANKC.

If her weaving is going well then our first trial will be 14th April.

 

Today when weaving she was jumping through the slanted poles. Not jumping-weaving but jumping over the poles. Is that normal?

 

Thanks everyone for the help! what would I do without you guys!?!

[Tassie]

Yes, jumping over the slanted poles can be a problem. I'd try standing them up a bit more so they look less like something to jump over. I find it's a bit of a trial and error thing.

 

Good luck when you start trialling. Kirra and I had a good day at Tasmania's first trial on Saturday. 8 runs, 5 DQs (but most of those were one mistake - mine - in an otherwise nice run), and 3 quallies - Excellent Agility, Open Jumping, and most exciting of all, Masters Jumping. They were all our first passes at those level, so quite encouraging.

 

Now back to working on my course analysis and handling.

[Kat's Dogs]

haha!

I am not the only one who has a dog that sucks to weaves more than tunnels!! I thought I would never hear of another dog that sucked to weaves like that...

[airbear]

Don't ever give up on it ... So be patient - it might seem a long road, but it's worth it in the end. Good luck.

Hi there,

 

To be honest, I don't really put too much effort into Lou's agility training. He is a sheepdog, first and foremost, and I don't want to doink around too much with the other doggie sports, as my primary goal with him is to have him working stock to the best of his abilities. He enjoys playing with me, it's nice to have a second dog with which to play, and he likes to do the jumps and tunnels. So if he never learns the contact equipment or the weaves, he can still play in Jumpers. Wick will continue to hold down the fort as the Agility Dog, since it's the only thing she can do. The other two get to work sheep, and at agility trials, they are merely stable ponies.

[Alaska]

Nope, no distance challenge in anything but [NADAC] Regular.

 

Also in Chances.

 

And there are three new games starting to appear: Hoopers, Gaters, and Agility Obedience. You have to read the NADAC agility mailing list for the latest info, as they're behind on updating the rulebook for now. As of a couple of days ago, the rules for these games had not been posted yet. You are most likely to see them at FUN-raisers, where new ideas are tested and the kinks worked out.

[Kat's Dogs]

Well, yeah. OK, there are distance lines in Chances because that is what Chances is.

 

I have been reading the threads on Hoopers and hope to see it at the WA fun-rasier! It sounds like a really cool class....