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borderlicious
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Wasn't sure where to post this . . . Feel free to move it if it's in the wrong place, Eileen.

 

I've been given the "okay" to start researching sheep. It doesn't mean I can get them yet, but I can start reading up on them and getting an idea of the space, time and money they will require.

 

I live on 5 acres in central Arizona, and I would like to have a few (5 would be ideal for starters) sheep to work my dog on in between lessons. I've found someone I want to take lessons from, but it's $75 each lesson and a 6-hour drive to and from her facility. I can't afford this on a weekly basis. I was thinking I could do this monthly, but it wouldn't be much use to pay for lessons once or twice a month, and have that be the only time she sees sheep. It'd be like getting piano lessons and never being able to practice at home. :rolleyes:

 

Anyway, yeah, getting my own sheep seems to be the best option. This would definitely be a "hobby flock" and, to be honest, I'd be getting them mainly for training purposes for the dog rather than out of a deep love for sheep. However, I do want to give them the best living arrangements I can, and I want opinions on that.

 

I have about 2.5 totally unoccupied acres that I could clear out, plant some wild grasses and fence into a small pasture. I would also have a medium-sized round pen attached to this "pasture", but wouldn't plan on keeping them in there. Would they need a barn, or would a smaller structure with some cooling fans suffice? Would this be acceptable for five sheep, or would they need more space?

 

I would need tame, dog-broke sheep to start with. Any idea how much these would cost me?

 

I have a few more questions but I'll start with that. :D Thanks in advance if anyone can help.

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Sheep really don't need a shelter. A few shade trees to hang out under and they're fine. I don't know what sheep go for in your area, but here i'd sell what you're looking for for around $100 or so, depending on age and size and such.

 

If i were you, i'd consider getting at least 6. That number could be broken down into two working groups of 3. Five doesn't split as well.

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About how much space do sheep need, Robin? Would 6+ do okay in a 2.5 acre pasture?

 

It depends on how much grass you have, but i would think you'd be fine with that number. You can add or subtract depending on how your grass holds up. I started out with 6 on a place about half that size.

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Okay, another silly question . . . What kind of grass do they need, and how much? Grass is kind of hard to keep up here in AZ (it's just super dry) yet I see people with large (and relatively bare) sheep farms in this very area, so I can't imagine they need a massive amount of grass every day.

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I'm thinking those folks in AZ are probably feeding some hay, as well. Hard to keep grass going all year long...and, yes, I'd opt for more than 5...anywhere up to 10, so you aren't always using the same sheep. Some rotation of stock will be better for the dogs and the sheep.

Anna

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If I were you I might go have a chat with the people who you say live around you with sheep. You can get a good idea on your particular terrain and what's the best growing forage for sheep in that area, predators you might have issues with, plus you might make friends with them and be able to use their sheep a bit with a work trade in mind. As you get further along in you dog training, you could offer to keep some of their sheep for the price of being able to work them with your dog. If I had lots of sheep and a close nieghbor I'd be glad to let someone who I knew was a good shepherd keep some of my sheep just to save on hay and pasture usage. It would also solve the issue of having dog broke sheep as quickly.

Good luck with your sheep journey.

Kristen

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Hello Borderlicious, I lived in Arizona for 20+ years. It really depends on where in Arizona you are.

I lived about 20 miles north of the border in Sahuarita Arizona. This is in the Sonoran Desert. Where

I was there was very seldom grass. We got about 9 inches of rain a year. Mostly all at once during

the monsoons. If you are in a riparian area or up in the mountains you could have pasture. I had in

laws in Show Low that ran cattle on pasture. Still he had to feed hay some of the year. You will probably

have to feed hay. A grass mix is best but all I could ever find was alfalfa. Alfalfa is an excellent feed for

sheep but it can have it's downsides. I once got a load of super leafy, fine stemmed stuff. I lost five sheep

in 20 minutes to bloat. Learned my lesson. These were sheep that had been eating alfalfa for years but

it was stemmier stuff. Some people I knew would plant pasture and irrigate. Big dollars though.

I used to haul my sheep around in a horse trailer to go to different locations to work the dogs. When

you do this make sure you check your dog's feet and ears for grass awns. They can cause big health

problems. I had alot of trouble with those. With 6 sheep a bale of hay lasted about 4-5 days. I'm talking

about the three wire bales that weighed about 90-120 lbs. Good luck.

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Hi Mona, thanks for the info!

 

I'm in Casa Grande, about 40 miles south of Phoenix. It's very dry and bare here and, like you, our few inches of rain per year is mostly from monsoons. We have no shortage of hay here, I just didn't know if sheep could survive on a diet of mainly hay. I've tried contacting farmers in the area and haven't been able to get hold of anyone. No matter how expensive the best quality hay is, it'd be less expensive for me to feed that and some other supplements than to try to keep a pasture going in this sand.

 

What is the best grass mix for sheep? We get lots of alfalfa here, but I'm not sure about other types of hay.

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If you feed hay year round, it might be worth it to look into purchasing a truck load of hay. You can get a decent price and get hay that is more adapted to meet the needs of sheep, rather than the alfalfa. Non-breeding sheep do great on any grass hay, or grass and legume combo. If you start running a large production flock you can get into forage quality and TDN and protein levels and all that, but for a teeny hobby flock you just want to see forage test results so you are getting what you pay for.

 

It looks like native or primitive type sheep might be your best bet - and I'm betting Navajo Churros are pretty readily available in your area. I've heard they are not bad sheep. the most important thing to find out in your extreme conditions, is what works best in your area. Sheep won't do you any good if you can't work them 280 days out of the year for fear of their dropping dead of the heat or if they starve to death on hay or eat you out of house and home. Locate some local sheep breeders and find out what they do, what breeds they raise, and what it takes to keep their sheep healthy and meeting their owner's expectations.

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Actually, this makes me wonder something...

 

I am used to buying..trying to buy...really good timothy hay by the tractor trailer load, usually from a Mennonite in PA, but often from wherever I can get it. Can vary dramatically on price, but anywhere from $4 a bale up to $8, depending. If I've got a poor keeper who needs a little more, I buy alfalfa square bales...that gets spendy and sometimes it's hard to find, so I sub Dengee.

 

I go through 15 bales a day in the winter easily, less than that, obviously, when there is good grass on the ground.

 

Can we talk about hay quality considerations for sheep?

 

A good square bale vs round bales?

 

Quality? Type? Do you change hay based whether or not they are pregnant? Lactating?

 

I know farmers feed their cows hay I can't use...what can sheep use? What's good? What's optimal? What's so bad you wouldn't look at it twice? Let me add here, I am so sensitized to bad (for horses) hay that Cheerios smell like dusty ick to me, I gag when I smell them, and I won't feed Cheerios to my family for that reason.

 

I wouldn't buy a big round bale and stick it in the middle of my paddocks for the horses, for example, because it would go off in the rain. Maybe less when it's cold, but still, not the quality I want them to be eating. Would you stick a round bale in a field for sheep and expect that they would be ok with it? Not getting sick, getting enough nutrition?

 

The likelihood here is that I'm going to end up feeding my future sheep my horse hay, so I don't have to go through the aggro of trying to source/store something different...is it likely to be overkill in terms of quality?

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Pax,

 

If you're going through 15 small square bales a day, you should consider large format hay. Large square bales (350 to 500 lbs) or 4X4 round bales (400 to 700 lbs) will save you a bunch of money. Larger round bales would be another option.

 

Of course, you have to be able to handle the larger bales. This usually means machinery, although I have managed to handle 4x4 round dry bales by hand (strong like bull, plus they roll).

 

As far as plunking a round bale out for the horses, if you are feeding 15 small squares a day, it sounds like they would just about clean up a 4x4 round bale in a day. When feeding sheep, I either roll out a round bale or set it up in a feeder. If I'm rolling out the bale, I don't put out more than they'll eat in a day. When setting them in feeders, I will put out up to five days' feed at a time, although two to four day is more typical. The main thing is to make sure that there's enough space so that the sheep aren't crowded around the bale, which would mean that shy or smaller ewes might not get enough to eat. Under extreme conditions, sheep can be killed if there are too many of them per round bale. For a 4x4 round bale, the right number seems to be no more than 45, and 30 would be better.

 

You also need a certain minimum number of sheep before it starts to make sense to feed round bales. My sense is that's around 12 or 15 ewes. Otherwise the bales sit around too long and the sheep start to get too selective about cleaning it up.

 

If you're feeding the same hay to horses and a small group of sheep, you could consider forking feed off a round bale into a feeder for the sheep and givng the rest to the horses.

 

What makes good sheep hay? More leaf than stem. This usually means second or third cutting feed. Should be nice and green, put up well, stored well (not stacked outside or left in situ). Will horse hay be overkill? Probably not. I've seen horse quality hay that runs the gamut from hay that sheep would be very hard pressed to stay alive on to hay where I would worry about bloat.

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Borderlicious,

I have sent a private message to you of people I know in Arizona who have sheep and also

work dogs. Neither do any trialing but they know sheep and dogs. The hair sheep breeds are

good for Arizona because they do not overheat as readily as the wooled breeds. Having said

that I also have Border Cheviots while in Arizona and they worked well. Hair breeds and Cheviots

tend to be flighty, moreso than most hair breeds but you can find dog broke ones that are pretty

managable. These people may have some dog broke sheep you could buy. Around Casa Grande

you'll find mostly Alfalfa. If you look hard you can find some grass hay or grass/alfalfa mix but it

can be hard to get consistently. If you feed alfalfa it will more than meet their needs. Don't supplement

with any grain. You'll want a good mineral mix made just for sheep. Don't get the goat or cattle kind

they will have too much copper, bad news for sheep. Any feed store can order it if you can't find any.

Some hay brokers I frequented in Tucson carried bermuda grass hay of good quality but it's the same

price as alfalfa. It didn't work for me because I am allergic to it! :rolleyes:

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Hi. I would second that on the hair breeds--katahdins are hearty and work well for dogs, too, as do the dorpers. Folks I know in that area have used both over the years and done fine,

Anna

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Bill,

 

While your math is probably right on, the real issue for me is I can't find round bales here that are good enough quality I feel comfortable feeding them to the horses. Most of the ones I see around here are baled up same day, or next day, and then sit outside. They mould on the inside and the nutrition gets weathered out of the outside.

 

I'm running a small JD tractor and I could easily put a spike on it, but I haven't made the jump just because good round bales are scarce as hen's teeth. The other part of my issue is that I am pretty obsessive about hay in the aisle and in the barn, and I just find round bales so messy. Truth is I'd pay a premium not to have to deal with it. I'm in the barn all day long, life is too short to aggravate myself when I like the small bales, you know? And we do so much traveling with the horses on weekends during the season I'd need to have square bales sourced so I can feed on the road...and to be honest with you, changing hay back and forth is a recipe for disaster with some of the nervous tummies in my barn. Horses..such hothouse flowers. :rolleyes:

 

But thank you. If I wasn't such a persnickety freak about my beasts, this could have been have been a really great suggestion. :D

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Regarding sheep not needing a shelter -- you should definitely check your state and local laws on this. In NY state, they just upgraded the agricultural laws to require some sort of shelter or windbreak for cows and sheep. When I had just gotten my sheep, I was reported by several people to the SPCA for not having a sheep shelter. Of course, this was after having had two portable shelters wrecked from high winds and being in the process of building a permanent one. In any case, it will make your life easier to check out all relevant regulations before getting your sheep.

 

Laura Donaldson

Cherokee Rose Border Collies & Katahdin Sheep

Freeville, NY 13068

 

 

Sheep really don't need a shelter. A few shade trees to hang out under and they're fine. I don't know what sheep go for in your area, but here i'd sell what you're looking for for around $100 or so, depending on age and size and such.

 

If i were you, i'd consider getting at least 6. That number could be broken down into two working groups of 3. Five doesn't split as well.

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