Mollie&Me Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Hello everyone! For my very first (and introductory) trick I'm going to annoy all of you with questions How lucky are you??? But first a quick little bio to perhaps make me seem less like the town wacko (and if this sounds at all familiar it's because I have indeed been stalking every BC forum/email list available online - a non-punishable offense thank god!): I have two purebred female BC's and one male BC/Husky cross. The eldest of the females is 8 years old (Lady), the youngest is 22 months, and her name is Mollie (and she is my beloved, spoiled Barbie Collie). Mollie had an auspicious beginning; born of two working BC parents on neighbouring farms, she was orphaned as a newborn and hand-raised (the bitch was killed in a farming equipment accident). She came home with me at 6 weeks and settled into a pseudo-rural environment - a small town where she is walked often, off leash, and is taken for visits to farms/acreages very often. She's been around horses (one of my passions), has herded ducks around bales of hay, and has had as close to a farm life as I can give her without actually living on a farm. And now I want to try her on sheep. Not because I have a sheep farm and she's going to be a great help to me (though honestly it has always been my goal to have a sizeable acreage with horses - but hey, I can add some sheep into that future mix!), but because I feel that this already wonderful dog may be that much more complete if she has a defined call-it-what-you-will of her own. A job, a hobby, an enjoyable pasttime, whatever. Something we can do together. And something for this too-intelligent and exuberant dog to focus on. And yeah, maybe a little bit of magic in her life. I have read a plethora of websites and seen one site say this, one say that, and I'm still looking for answers to the eleventy-million questions in my head. Like (and believe me this is jumping out of my head right now in no particular order): - If it doesn't work out, if she sees sheep and something goes wrong, is it really like leading a kid to the gates of Disney and saying they can't go in??? - I knew a guy who had a service dog. The service dog was only allowed to play in one certain way with one certain toy (in this case, a ball). I horse around with Mollie a lot, and it often only involves her and me, no toys. Is this a behaviour that should be stopped in order to train her for sheepherding? - Mollie was trained right from the get-go to walk off-leash. Her recall is very solid and she heels better off leash than on. But when I do have to leash her, I do not use a collar, I use a harness (though she has been exposed to wearing both). Is it ok to train with a harness or should a collar be used? - The biggest obstacle that I'm going to have to consider with training her is the cost. I'm sure that there's no set rate, but what should I expect? Are we talking $100/month? Or more in the range of $500/month? Or (*GASP*) more??? - Mollie has basic obedience. Is that enough? It seems, from what I've read, that some of our trained commands may conflict with the herding commands; ie I use "Come" for recall (along with a hand-gesture), "Down" for close-downs. Is this going to cause a problem? - I worry about my Barbie Collie being hurt. Don't get me wrong, she grew up around horses right from a tiny pup, and the risk was always there that she'd be kicked. Are my worries justified? Do BC's often get hurt in this hobby/sport/job? - I am going to contact a few trainers that have been recommended to me by people on a yahoo mailing list tonight (obviously all of these questions will be put to them as well). I, however, do not have the first clue as to how to what criteria is necessary to decide which trainer will work well for Mollie and I. Any suggestions? - What do I need to do/have to personally prepare? OK that's all I can think of for now... TIA for any and all help/advice and also for taking the time to read this mini-essay! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pippin's person Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Welcome to the Boards--I think you'll find lots of helpful and interesting advice. I'm a total novice, just learning with my dogs, but becoming increasingly immersed and interested. Sometimes you can get good information from another newbie who's a little less new than you--the non-newbies will no doubt pipe up as well--but here's a stab at answering your questions from the perspective of someone learning the ropes. - If it doesn't work out, if she sees sheep and something goes wrong, is it really like leading a kid to the gates of Disney and saying they can't go in??? If I understand your question right, I don't think it's the same thing because dogs don't seem to use their memories in the same ways as humans do. If for some reason it doesn't work out, then she can go back to the wonderful life it sounds like she's having right now without working the sheep and probably won't be any worse for the wear. But, you should give it some time if you can. My female took several exposures before she decided to even look at the sheep...she got a lot of good poop eating in, but turned away from the sheep, even when one was brought in front of her. then, suddenly, one week she just turned on. Also, it's still worth doing even if your dog isn't a super worker. That same female of mine (Pippin, pictured in my avatar) isn't all that talented, but I learn a lot from working with her. - I knew a guy who had a service dog. The service dog was only allowed to play in one certain way with one certain toy (in this case, a ball). I horse around with Mollie a lot, and it often only involves her and me, no toys. Is this a behaviour that should be stopped in order to train her for sheepherding? No, it's not like service work in my experience. I horse around just as much with my dogs as before I started to learn to work with them on sheep. - Mollie was trained right from the get-go to walk off-leash. Her recall is very solid and she heels better off leash than on. But when I do have to leash her, I do not use a collar, I use a harness (though she has been exposed to wearing both). Is it ok to train with a harness or should a collar be used? You don't really need either in my experience except if you are working with a long line at the beginning in which case it could conceivably be attached to a harness, though I've only ever seen it attached to a collar - The biggest obstacle that I'm going to have to consider with training her is the cost. I'm sure that there's no set rate, but what should I expect? Are we talking $100/month? Or more in the range of $500/month? Or (*GASP*) more??? We pay $20 for a 1/2 hour lesson per dog once a week--so $80 a month for each dog we train. I think that might be on the low end of training costs, but I don't think I've heard it going as high as $500 a month (which would be over $100 per lesson a week). If you do any clinics, those are pricier, but also only 1-3 days. - Mollie has basic obedience. Is that enough? It seems, from what I've read, that some of our trained commands may conflict with the herding commands; ie I use "Come" for recall (along with a hand-gesture), "Down" for close-downs. Is this going to cause a problem? Basic obedience is enough as long as she has a good "down" (or some kind of stop). Much of what your dog seems to do in the beginning anyway is work to body movements and then get the verbal cues (or whistles) from that. Our dogs went from having "come" as their only recall to also having "here" and "that'll do" to mean recall--they seem to have made the transition easily and respond to all three (except for those cases where they make a different choice...) I switched to saying "lie down" because I wanted to sound as cool as the instructor , but I think they would do it for just "down". If by a "close" down, you mean that she comes to you before she lays down, then you'll have to train her to go down at a distance away from you too. She should also be able to accept a correction without pouting or shutting down (here a correction could be a sideways glance, a growled "get out of that", or something like having a bag rustled at her, a bottle full of rocks shook at her, or a stock stick tossed in her direction--but not at her directly) - I worry about my Barbie Collie being hurt. Don't get me wrong, she grew up around horses right from a tiny pup, and the risk was always there that she'd be kicked. Are my worries justified? Do BC's often get hurt in this hobby/sport/job? Your worries are justified in that any activity can hurt your dog--and especially one involving another species. In my limited experience, I've seen more retired flyball dogs with back, knee or elbow trouble than retired herding dogs, which I suspect has somethign to do with the repetitive motion. On the other hand, I've heard of no flyball dogs get fatally wounded while playing flyball and have heard of working dogs being killed or otherwise seriously hurt while working. My own compromise for now (and others will almost certainly disagree with me) is to stay away from rams and cattle since those are the contexts in which I've heard about the most injury. In terms of often hurt--I don't think so (though 'often' is relative of course) - I am going to contact a few trainers that have been recommended to me by people on a yahoo mailing list tonight (obviously all of these questions will be put to them as well). I, however, do not have the first clue as to how to what criteria is necessary to decide which trainer will work well for Mollie and I. Any suggestions?- What do I need to do/have to personally prepare? I think if you find a trainer who you like and who seems to work well with your dog, then that goes far. But also, looking for someone who has given lessons before and who either competes at the "open" level or has a working farm/ranch. In my experience, the best people I've worked with have been those who compete in trials. I don't think there's a lot you can do to prepare, honestly. If you've never been around sheep (as I hadn't), you might see if you can find some place where you can walk around with them and get a sense of how they move, but it does kind of seem to be one of those things that you learn best by doing it and having someone telling you what to do as you do it. There are some really good books out there, but I found that they didn't make much sense to me until I'd gotten a little experience. Hope that helps Robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mollie&Me Posted February 16, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Welcome to the Boards--I think you'll find lots of helpful and interesting advice. I'm a total novice, just learning with my dogs, but becoming increasingly immersed and interested. Sometimes you can get good information from another newbie who's a little less new than you--the non-newbies will no doubt pipe up as well--but here's a stab at answering your questions from the perspective of someone learning the ropes. Thank you so much Robin! I want to hear from everyone, and getting some feedback from a not-so-newbie-but-still-sparkling is definitely a great help!! If I understand your question right, I don't think it's the same thing because dogs don't seem to use their memories in the same ways as humans do. If for some reason it doesn't work out, then she can go back to the wonderful life it sounds like she's having right now without working the sheep and probably won't be any worse for the wear. Yes, that's what I meant. I read a blurb that said that, unless one is fully committed beforehand, one should not even consider taking a BC out to sheep. The analogy of Disneyland was used, and it kind of freaked me out, because I don't have a group of sheep at my disposal 24/7. I was inclined towards thoughts similar to yours, Robin, but the stupid phrase just wouldn't leave me alone lol (I've been stewing on this one for a good week). I've had all these visions of taking her to the sheep, having her prance up to the sheep, throw her paws around their noses and yell "Where have you been all my life??"...and then a meteor falls on my car and we're permanently prevented from ever seeing another sheep. And it just breaks her. LOL. (well ok you get the picture, right) Yep, I needed some reassurance No, it's not like service work in my experience. I horse around just as much with my dogs as before I started to learn to work with them on sheep. OK, big pheeeew. LOL. I play with Mollie a lot and that's not something that I would easily sacrifice. (whoo, big load off my shoulders!) We pay $20 for a 1/2 hour lesson per dog once a week--so $80 a month for each dog we train. I think that might be on the low end of training costs, but I don't think I've heard it going as high as $500 a month (which would be over $100 per lesson a week). If you do any clinics, those are pricier, but also only 1-3 days. That is definitely affordable I guess all I can do now is wait and see... But you've inspired me to another question: clinics. Can we play the five W's on these? (who, what, where, when, why) Oh, which now has me on another mental track: do you all continue to train during winter months? It gets bloody cold up here and honestly I just don't see it being possible to train in -30C weather with three feet of snow. And if it is indeed possible, how on earth do you protect the dog from the elements? I have been around sheep before (I've also ridden a few cows in my time lol) so that part won't be shockingly new to me, though it's been several years. I've seen a dog take a nasty kick from a horse right in the ribs (picked him up and threw him a good distance!), so I guess I'm looking for that elusive reassurance again (sorry lol). Though I couldn't keep Mollie out of the pasture, I made her understand that she needed to stay out from under the hooves of those massive creatures, so she never got close enough. Now I guess I'm seeing this as a situation where I'd be willing her to get up close and personal with a creature that has the potential to seriously wound. A little scary, isn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisK Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Welcome aboard! As I have been reminded on occasion, the "search" feature on this board is excellent. I am sure you will find that most of your questions will have been answered at some time or other. As a matter of fact, last week I was going to post a question, used the search feature and realized I had asked a similar question about a year ago!! Needless to say, THIS time, I printed the answers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mollie&Me Posted February 16, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Welcome aboard! Thank you As I have been reminded on occasion, the "search" feature on this board is excellent. I am sure you will find that most of your questions will have been answered at some time or other. As a matter of fact, last week I was going to post a question, used the search feature and realized I had asked a similar question about a year ago!! Needless to say, THIS time, I printed the answers Oh, I know ALL about the search feature on this board.....I run an IPB forum (one for a chronic medical condition, no less). I could probably do things with that search function that would drop your jaw However, I have already exhausted all of the searching that I possibly want to do, and my questions now are now both broader and more personally related to myself and my dog. Thus, this post was born, my attempt to find both answers along with the personal touch of experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Hi there My suggestion is to find a good trainer. Ask to set up a meet and for your dog to "meet" the sheep. See how this first time goes, and if it is determined that your dog has some tools in her box, set up your next lesson, and your next, and your next.... Julie Thank you Oh, I know ALL about the search feature on this board.....I run an IPB forum (one for a chronic medical condition, no less). I could probably do things with that search function that would drop your jaw However, I have already exhausted all of the searching that I possibly want to do, and my questions now are now both broader and more personally related to myself and my dog. Thus, this post was born, my attempt to find both answers along with the personal touch of experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 One more thing- about getting hurt. When you first work your dog on sheep, it should be in a controlled setting, with dog broke sheep, perhaps on a long line (the dog not the sheep ! and with a very experienced trainer. I think it happens that people get hurt sometimes more than dogs- wear good footwear! Julie Hello everyone!For my very first (and introductory) trick I'm going to annoy all of you with questions How lucky are you??? But first a quick little bio to perhaps make me seem less like the town wacko (and if this sounds at all familiar it's because I have indeed been stalking every BC forum/email list available online - a non-punishable offense thank god!): I have two purebred female BC's and one male BC/Husky cross. The eldest of the females is 8 years old (Lady), the youngest is 22 months, and her name is Mollie (and she is my beloved, spoiled Barbie Collie). Mollie had an auspicious beginning; born of two working BC parents on neighbouring farms, she was orphaned as a newborn and hand-raised (the bitch was killed in a farming equipment accident). She came home with me at 6 weeks and settled into a pseudo-rural environment - a small town where she is walked often, off leash, and is taken for visits to farms/acreages very often. She's been around horses (one of my passions), has herded ducks around bales of hay, and has had as close to a farm life as I can give her without actually living on a farm. And now I want to try her on sheep. Not because I have a sheep farm and she's going to be a great help to me (though honestly it has always been my goal to have a sizeable acreage with horses - but hey, I can add some sheep into that future mix!), but because I feel that this already wonderful dog may be that much more complete if she has a defined call-it-what-you-will of her own. A job, a hobby, an enjoyable pasttime, whatever. Something we can do together. And something for this too-intelligent and exuberant dog to focus on. And yeah, maybe a little bit of magic in her life. I have read a plethora of websites and seen one site say this, one say that, and I'm still looking for answers to the eleventy-million questions in my head. Like (and believe me this is jumping out of my head right now in no particular order): - If it doesn't work out, if she sees sheep and something goes wrong, is it really like leading a kid to the gates of Disney and saying they can't go in??? - I knew a guy who had a service dog. The service dog was only allowed to play in one certain way with one certain toy (in this case, a ball). I horse around with Mollie a lot, and it often only involves her and me, no toys. Is this a behaviour that should be stopped in order to train her for sheepherding? - Mollie was trained right from the get-go to walk off-leash. Her recall is very solid and she heels better off leash than on. But when I do have to leash her, I do not use a collar, I use a harness (though she has been exposed to wearing both). Is it ok to train with a harness or should a collar be used? - The biggest obstacle that I'm going to have to consider with training her is the cost. I'm sure that there's no set rate, but what should I expect? Are we talking $100/month? Or more in the range of $500/month? Or (*GASP*) more??? - Mollie has basic obedience. Is that enough? It seems, from what I've read, that some of our trained commands may conflict with the herding commands; ie I use "Come" for recall (along with a hand-gesture), "Down" for close-downs. Is this going to cause a problem? - I worry about my Barbie Collie being hurt. Don't get me wrong, she grew up around horses right from a tiny pup, and the risk was always there that she'd be kicked. Are my worries justified? Do BC's often get hurt in this hobby/sport/job? - I am going to contact a few trainers that have been recommended to me by people on a yahoo mailing list tonight (obviously all of these questions will be put to them as well). I, however, do not have the first clue as to how to what criteria is necessary to decide which trainer will work well for Mollie and I. Any suggestions? - What do I need to do/have to personally prepare? OK that's all I can think of for now... TIA for any and all help/advice and also for taking the time to read this mini-essay! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pax Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Hey...at least you are an annoying-newbie-with-a-million-questions who lives with a Border Collie. I'm an annoying-newbie-with-a-million-questions who doesn't! So you're all good on not being the newbiest newbieness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 The three important things your dog needs to know before going to sheep are: his/her name; a recall (use "here" rather than "come" because "come bye" and "come" are outrun/flanking commands; and to be able to take a correction (in other words, to be corrected is not the end of the world and is not a reason to sulk). Lesson prices range from exchanged for farm help or barter, on up. I pay $40 for a half-hour lesson. Private lessons from top instructors can be $120 per hour. Clinics are a great way to train. You get several days of instruction even though your dog is only in the round pen or field for short periods of time each day (usually a couple of times per day). You get to watch, listen, and learn from all the student/dog teams that are being instructed. Clinics usually cost in the neighborhood of $150-200 for a two-three day clinic, but the price varies with the host, the clinician, and the duration of the clinic. I see you are in Alberta. If you can train with Scott Glen, you would be training with one of the very best in North America, a truly world-class handler/trainer. He won't be cheap but he is excellent. Best wishes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Welcome! Your post is a wee bit overwhelming - lots to answer and normally I'd be game, but I'm smack dab in the middle of lambing, feeding orphans, with two resident trainees and two pups of our own. The one thing I can recommend is don't overthink this. Go with your heart. I've seen people from all walks of life jump into working with their dogs, in any situation from going to lessons with a world champion once a week, to going to a weekend clinic once a year - people with sheep, farms but no sheep, and homes with no acreage at all. Take the right attitude and you can't go wrong. You will be exploring a lifestyle that your dog was made for - the caretaking of livestock. You already are familiar with the principles of respecting the hoofed animals, in your work with the horses. Your dog's purpose is ultimately to help care for them, even if you never progress past doing teeny gathers in a teeny field on dog broke sheep. Some final thoughts: Do like the dogs do and take it one day at a time Never second guess yourself Never make excuses for you or your dog Look for the best trainers - your dog deserves it Relax! Have fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Well, OK, I'll jump in here, since that "Disney" analogy sounds hauntingly familiar What I mean by that is this: I live in southrn CA (commonly referred to as the "land of the fruits and nuts"--a description not altogether misleading), and we have a lot of people who think it would be grand to have a "day in the country" with their beloved Poopsie. They want to bring the dog out (one time only), to let it "chase sheep," and have NO INTENTION of ever bringing the dog back to even TRY herding as a hobby. They show up in a cutesy short sundress with little strappy sandals, are appalled that their dog might eat some sheep poop (AKA power pellets to the dogs, of course), and wouldn't dream of letting the dog drink out of the stock tank (where all the dogs not only drink, but jump in to cool off). I've seen too much of this over the years, and I find it frustrating--they bring out a keen young dog, the dog really turns on, I know this dog could come along nicely, but I know that dog is now going back to the condo forever. Sigh. Not only that, but it's wear and tear on my sheep, and I tend to be pretty protective of them (someone has to be). So the "committment" thing has to do probably more with original intentions, if that makes sense--you are considering DOING this, not just having a photo opp. So that is why I don't see you and Mollie as falling into this category at all. You are doing your homework, asking questions, and giving this very careful consideration. Good for you. If I had a person in my area call and ask these questions, I'd think, "Cool! THIS person is really gonna be a good 'un!" BTW, in this area, lessons are usually somewhere in the $35 and up range. I know many say lessons are a half hour or an hour or whatever. I charge $35, and lessons are as long as it takes to get in three works--people are usually here a good hour and a half to two hours. You wouldn't believe how many times I've been contacted by people who say they are "not interested in training. We just want her to herd sheep around the pastures." Anna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweet_ceana Posted February 16, 2007 Report Share Posted February 16, 2007 Thank you for asking these questions! I have been curious myself and have not really known where to start to form the right questions to ask Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted February 17, 2007 Report Share Posted February 17, 2007 You wouldn't believe how many times I've been contacted by people who say they are "not interested in training. We just want her to herd sheep around the pastures." Egads. I wouldn't just say no - I'd build a moat! Lessons around here run around $40 to $50 with someone who has hung their shingle after placing in trials with some regularity. More for a "Big name" but I find the casual mentoring the smaller hats offer to be more rewarding for a novice like me. I like taking clinics with the top trainers though. Always take the opportunity to go to these clinics, even if you can only afford to audit. Watching other dogs work and listening is worth every penny and every moment of your time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pippin's person Posted February 18, 2007 Report Share Posted February 18, 2007 I see you are in Alberta. If you can train with Scott Glen, you would be training with one of the very best in North America, a truly world-class handler/trainer. He won't be cheap but he is excellent. I completely second Sue--if you can get a couple of lessons in with Scott Glen, that would be most excellent for you and your girl and probably worth whatever it costs. I'm going to attend a clinic with him in June and can hardly keep my brand-spanking new stock stick still with anticipation....(plus it'll be my first clinic in any event, so that makes it all the more full of anticipation. Robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mollie&Me Posted February 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2007 WOW, thank you so much everyone!!! All of your answers and suggestions are of invaluable help to me! I think it happens that people get hurt sometimes more than dogs- wear good footwear!Julie OK so mental note to self: worry more about bumbling toes than dog lol. Are we talking steel-toed shoes here? What kind of footwear do you guys wear to prevent crushed toes? Hey...at least you are an annoying-newbie-with-a-million-questions who lives with a Border Collie. I'm an annoying-newbie-with-a-million-questions who doesn't! So you're all good on not being the newbiest newbieness. LOL!!! I concede the throne of newbiestessness to you! (but seriously, why don't you have a BC???) The three important things your dog needs to know before going to sheep are: his/her name; a recall (use "here" rather than "come" because "come bye" and "come" are outrun/flanking commands; and to be able to take a correction (in other words, to be corrected is not the end of the world and is not a reason to sulk). I see you are in Alberta. If you can train with Scott Glen, you would be training with one of the very best in North America, a truly world-class handler/trainer. He won't be cheap but he is excellent. Best wishes! She knows her name so we're good to go on that one. I'm not big on changing the recall - here is too similar to heel, which is why I used 'come' in the first place, and as an off-leash dog she needs solid 'comes' and 'heels'; is there a way to get around this? I did read that alternate commands can be used in these cases but of course I bow to expertise...I'll teach a new recall command if necessary, but I'd rather avoid it if possible. As for corrections, she's never been devastated or pouted before (she's a little too sassy for that), so hopefully that will hold up Thank you, Sue I've actually had a few people recommend Scott Glen but unfortunately he's too far away from me I live in the wrong area of Alberta lol. I would have to drive a good 5 hours one way, which just isn't feasible for weekly training sessions. But I will definitely look into one of his clinics (and who knows, maybe one day I'll just go for a little road trip...) What's funny is that Jenny Glen emailed me in response to a similar question I'd asked on the Stockdogs yahoo list; she recommended Ken MacKenzie in Drayton Valley. I honestly had no idea who she was until people started suggesting that I see Scott Glenn LOL. (don't I feel idiotic now!) Well, OK, I'll jump in here, since that "Disney" analogy sounds hauntingly familiar So that is why I don't see you and Mollie as falling into this category at all. You are doing your homework, asking questions, and giving this very careful consideration. Good for you. If I had a person in my area call and ask these questions, I'd think, "Cool! THIS person is really gonna be a good 'un!" Anna, let me just say this: your analogy is extremely effective. And I mean that as the biggest compliment possible! I - who have seen dogs bring horse poop in the house and shove it under the couch to be discovered a month later - was thinking long and hard about the commitment, just as your words were meant to do And thank you so much for your vote of confidence!! (PS -- I don't own a sundress, either LOL) OK, so I've gotten lots of suggestions from other people about trainers in my area, and Elvin Kopp has been recommended most often. He's by far the closest to me, and I've been told that he has some training videos out and is a very good stockman and trainer, so I'm definitely giving him a call on Tuesday (no sense interrupting someones long weekend lol). But I'm wondering if I should shop around? I don't know what sort of credentials that Jenny Glen's recommendation (Mr. MacKenzie) has, but would you guys look them both up if you were me? I feel so out of my depth here; I don't even know what I should be looking for in a competent trainer. But I'm willing to jump in the deep end feet first Oh but wait, I have another question for the snow-bound people. Do you guys train during winter months? I am assuming that it's a year round thing, maybe like horses with an indoor ring or something? Or am I totally off base here... Man I am already recognizing this bitten feeling...just what I need, like the knitting and aquariums and websites and books aren't enough.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 18, 2007 Report Share Posted February 18, 2007 Tiffany - If you don't want to say "here", you could still use "come" for the recall and use "go bye" instead of "come bye". That's how I started out. I still have problems trying to avoid using the word "come" for the recall. The dogs can be very good at distinguishing "circumstances", so to speak. In other words, when I say "come" in the house, they don't head out on an outrun. If we are in the pasture, the word "come" sends Celt on an outrun. But part of the reason that I try to use distinct wording is not just for the dogs - it's for ME! And I still get it mixed up. It's like "down". We use that to mean "lie down". However, so many people (and we mess up and do it, too, sometimes) use it to mean "get off me/the bed/the couch/etc.". So, we use "off" to mean to not be jumping up on someone or something, and "down" to mean to lie down. That's complicated by stockwork where "lie down" or "down" can mean anything from "think" to "hesitate" to "stop" or "stand" to "lie down", depending on context and tone of voice. Sheesh - this is awful hard for an older lady like me to get straight. It is complicated in our house by multiple people interacting with the dogs and so we all need to get on the same page and use the same words. Thank goodness the dogs are forgiving but it is important to be clear and not confusing to avoid frustration, both on your part and that of the dog. Scott and Jenny Glen will steer you in the right direction. They are good people. Best wishes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pax Posted February 18, 2007 Report Share Posted February 18, 2007 LOL!!! I concede the throne of newbiestessness to you! (but seriously, why don't you have a BC???) My old BC was a goof ball I got from my hay guy. He claimed the parents worked on his farm, but my dog's only interest was being loved on and fed, in turn. Or both, he wasn't picky. I now have time and opportunity to have another. There is something I find wonderous about watching a dog work sheep. I am really keen to do it right this time and do my homework, get a little education, have the right situation for a working dog. I am taking lessons from Mark Billadeau...(you might see him and his wife, Renee, post on these boards as Pipedream Farm). When I take the lessons, Renee generously lets me use her dog, Starr. I am getting a real education, she is a smart girl. Smarter than me, at this. Last week, I stood there and watched that smart dog walk up, one foot at a time, to her sheep to turn them...careful, smart, knowing I'd asked and doing her job. All I could do was stand there in awe. For me, the beautiful part is when I shut up and let the dog BE. That's harder than you think. (Well, it is for me. You might be fabulous at it. ) I am looking forward to having a full time working dog. I'll get there. My husband took this...left to right is Mark, me, Starr the Amazing and Wonderful, and some of the ladies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airbear Posted February 18, 2007 Report Share Posted February 18, 2007 ... she recommended Ken MacKenzie in Drayton Valley. I strongly second this recommendation! Lou spent a few months with Ken shortly after I bought him, and he did a wonderful job with him. Put the most amazing shed on him, and cleaned up a lot of things. I take a lesson from Ken every time he's in town (he comes to BC every 4 months or so to do clinics), as well as bug him with phone calls when I get stuck on something. He's an excellent trainer, handler, and judge, and just generally a really nice guy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted February 18, 2007 Report Share Posted February 18, 2007 Pax, What's that green stuff all over the ground? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pax Posted February 18, 2007 Report Share Posted February 18, 2007 Pax, What's that green stuff all over the ground? Why, that would be grass, Bill. Has it been a while for you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 18, 2007 Report Share Posted February 18, 2007 Don't fret, Bill. According to Renee on Thursday, it was just a sheet of ice there. It's a combo of packed snow, sheet of ice, and more snow here. Misery loves company. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pax Posted February 18, 2007 Report Share Posted February 18, 2007 Don't fret, Bill. According to Renee on Thursday, it was just a sheet of ice there. It's a combo of packed snow, sheet of ice, and more snow here. Misery loves company. Aw, Sue, we could have really wound him up... No worries, ...this is what it looked like an hour ago.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted February 19, 2007 Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 We have about two feet of snow most places, except where the drifts are deeper. On Thursday morning I was counting sheep to make sure nothing got drifted in -- all present and accounted for. We actually have not had much of a winter here. Most of January and the first half of February were pretty dry, and it didn't really start getting cold until early February. Even so, we missed out on the bitter cold that hit the midwest. It would sure be nice to see some green grass again, though. I think the last time I saw green grass here was in December. It's been brown or covered in snow or ice since then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted February 19, 2007 Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 Hey Bill, I've got a tiny bit of green grass coming up. Just enough to make the sheep want to ignore the hay in favor of the green. Frankly I wish they'd eat the hay and let the grass grow a bit. We had some cold, windy days lately, lows in the teens at night, but we're supposed to be back up in the 60s by Wednesday. If we get a warm spell, I think everything will start growing! And I won't be complaining! J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcollie Posted February 19, 2007 Report Share Posted February 19, 2007 We don't have any snow on the ground but could sure use some. It has been a very dry winter which isn't good for this summer's irrigation outlook. I just got back from a big sheep dog trial in Zamora, California and the hills were green and it was in the 70's. It was a big, big course up big, big hills and the dogs that ran in the afternoons got too hot. We even shaded up on Saturday afternoon. Very weird. I am back home and it is 20 degrees. What a change for only 280 miles away. Geri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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