ABCA or BCSA: which is correct?

[jimahall]

My intention in this topic is not to start a squabble or offend anyone. It has been brought to my attention that two groups on yahoo has been attacking ABCA breeders. When I attempted to join to see if copyrighted material from me was posted, my request was denied. I fully understand the importance of CEA and other genetic testing. But at present it is not a requirement of the ABCA. These few (13 members) insist that all border collie owners/breeders conform to the BCSA regulations. Any who do not are labeled a puppymill and unethical. From what I am told, this would make nearly all ABCA owners/breeders unethical and a puppymill. It is wonderful to see the results for the CEA DNA testing. As soon as I can finacially afford to, I plan on having my breeding stock DNA tested.

 

This week an individual joined my yaho group then posted a photo of "their" dog working sheep. To highlight the new member, I placed their photo on the homepage. Within hours I recieved a report that the photo was copyrighted, was of a UK dog in Hungary, and I would be sued if it was not removed. I then noticed the member who posted the photo has left the group.

 

I realise that there are BCSA members on this forum. But the moderater of this forum is a director of the ABCA. The argument between working and conformation will not end anytime soon if ever. Why doesn't these folks just go on with their "ethical" breeding of confirmation border collie type dogs and leave all the working border collie folks alone? The last breeder that I saw attacked by these folks (and it happened on this forum also) is a lifetime member of the ABCA. It takes a brave person to hide behind a fictious/assumed name on the internet.

 

As for these two groups: if you are a member of these groups and you have seen anything concerning my small Oklahoma farm posted please inform the group moderator that any and all information concerning my farm including its name is under copyright and must be used with written permission from me. I have never nor will ever authorise a non-ABCA group to post, copy or other wise use my copyrighted information. Nor do I authorise this post to be forwarded to these groups or their members.

 

Ellien, thanks for allowing me to vent. Also thanks for keeping us updated on the DNA testing. This issue concerns us all.

 

Jim A. Hall

Hall Farms

Checotah Oklahoma

jimahall@yahoo.com Hall Farms

[Caroline]

I do have a question Jim. Why do you mention color in your breedings if you are concerned with the working border collie?

Caroline

[jimahall]

I currently have 4 border collies. Jack is a extra-large, rough coat, half white face, black and white. Ty, grandson of ##Wisp, is tri color, rough coat, large. Jess (f) is large, smooth coat, "traditional" black and white. Ginger is dark red/white, small, rough coat and has erict ears. None resemble each other much, but all are ABCA registered. The one trait each share is working ability. I have advertised color only to identify the pup. A heathy, working pup is my concern. In the last year I have moved to my mother's farm, added both sheep and ducks to work my dogs with and reworked my father's old kennel runs to house my border collies.

 

Who would not advertise a "colored" pup if they had one. Would I breed for color? Never. I am told that TY's sire was blue and there is great possiblity that with both Jess and Ginger there will be blue pups. There may also be tri, red, sable or any other color including black/white.

 

I saw a PBS program not long ago about a Soviet program in the 1950's with wild artic foxes. They were breeding the "wild" out of them so they could farm raise the fur. After 5 generations they succeeded in getting rid of the "wild" nature. Of corse the fur now resembled the border collie, lab, german sheperd and others. When they "removed" the gene for wild, they tampered with the color genes. If we tamper with the color/confirmation genes will we remove the "working" gene? After seeing this documentary it "enlighted" me to the risk involved.

 

I am still in the learning phase of all this. We are farmers. Have been all my life. We used BCs since 1965. I never intended to become a "big hat" nor probally ever will. I have gotten a lot of attention due to these few anti-ABCA folks. Someone once said even bad advertising is good advertising. Am I a great "breeder"? No. Was I lucky acquiring some great dogs? Yes. I was shocked to be able to get TY. He is a great started dog and is absolutly beautiful. Kim had several offers that far exceeded mine. She only wanted a good home. They drove down one afternoon and visited with us. Looked over my farm. We talked about my future plans and so forth. I am indebted to them. My only goal in breeding these females to Ty is heathly, working pups. Will all work? Don't know yet. What color will the pups be? God may not know yet. Hope this answers your question.

[Eileen Stein]

Jim, I'm not sure what your purpose is in posting this. Are you saying that you object to something that was posted here, on the BC Boards? There really isn't anything we can do about something that's posted on some other internet list or board.

[Caroline]

I guess it answers it somewhat Jim. I do not mean for this to be an attack of any kind. I just wondered. I still think that writing, we expect some blue pups from this breeding will lead some people to think you are considering color in your breeding. It implies hopeful about getting a blue pup and I don't think you care what pups you get.Thanks for replying.

Caroline

:cool:

[KathyF]

Jim-

 

Just to let you know that Ty's sire, Rob, was not a blue and white dog, he was a black and white rough coated dog.

 

Kathy

[jimahall]

I guess I posted this topic more or less to vent. In November there was a false complaint against my group and it was filed under my name, as if I was the complaintant. The server bought the line and deactivated the group. I started a new group. All was well till a few weeks ago when someone started it up again. Apparently there are a group of 13 folks that are the appointed watchdogs of the border collie arena. We have after months of research found that the #1 person is not ABCA but BCSA. I guess I was just trying to find out how to best defend ourselves from those that are not even in our circle. There just seems no way of pleasing them. If we spent thousands of dollars doing all the testing they "require" they would still demand more. It almost makes one not want to associate with anyone. These folks slammed me as a PM and not one has visited our farm. I was so thankful that Kim Wolf came by. This morning some 30 photos were added to our group. These were all of confirmation dogs and most obviously copyrighted. I deleted them ASAP. They are using illegal and visious methods to destroy a discussion group for working farm dogs. Plus our group only has less than 100 members. What danger can we be.

 

I am not perfect by any means. I made some mistakes in the past. Genetics and color genetics are not my strong point. Now having colored Icelandic sheep, I have a whole different set of genetic rules to learn. I was raised and taught that you take the best working dog available and mate it to the best working dog available and you will get good working dogs. I guess my mistake was joining some other forums thinking all BC folks were good people. Once they got me in their radar it seems I can not escape. I guess I was just wondering how others that do not conform to their ideas have fared. We all know the fight the ABCA had with the kennel club.

 

So what if I made a mistake on what color a pup was. Until this last year I did not even know a BC could be blue. Merle was all I had ever heard of. We all make mistakes. For most of my life we have had black and white BCs. I was told that Rob was dark blue, but in never seeing him perhaps I misunderstood. Should I be punished? I am man enough to admit a mistake.

 

Perhaps I was just hoping someone on this forum had seen these two groups and could help me. Anyway, maybe it would be best for me to go back to lurking. If I have offended anyone, I appologise.

[jimahall]

FYI: the blue pups we got from our last litter were beautiful. I was in shock when I saw them. It was like looking at a litter of hampshire pigs and see a white one. Did not plan on it but it happened. Mistake I made was posting a question on the wrong forum and in the wrong way. In poultry they call it a sport. The white rock was a "sport" from the barred rocks. The red angus cattle are "sports" of the black angus. Out of 100 cows and several years of breeding we only got two red angus calves. I possibly could remate Jess to Bob a hundred times and never see a blue pup. But they were beautiful in the field learning to work.

[Caroline]

Hey Jim,

I was just asking an honest question and I appreciate that you gave me an answer. None of us know everything. There are puppy mills and backyard breeders out there. Lots of them. That is why some of us might sound harsh at times. If I was breeding, I wouldn't mention color. That is what I would do. I wish you well, and thanks again for your honest sincere replies.

Caroline

[KathyF]

Jim-

 

I don't know who told you that Rob was a dark blue. I don't know why they would tell you that either, other than to mislead you. But I have seen Rob and he is a black white. Blue is an odd color that usually doesn't turn up in working lines, but it appears that Wisp must be a carrier?? Not that it matters, it is just another color.

[jimahall]

I thank each of you for responding. We must all keep in focus on the working ability of our border collie. I had a fellow a few months ago call wanting a pup. He had purchased two border collie pups in the last 2 years. He gave one away and the other is now about 2yr old. Neither would "turn on" when they saw stock. He said they were dumb as dirt. He thought he was getting dogs that would work. Yet when I offered one of my "started" pups he balked at the price. I even offered to trade for some of his boer goats (he has 400+). He refused to pay more than $50 for a dog. On another list (LGD) a gal asked about a problem with her LGD killing stock. It was a mixed breed Pyr/golden retriever I think. I guess sometimes you get what you pay for and sometimes you don't. One thing my father taught me was : never breed from a non-working dog. We have had many spayed/neutered border collies over the years. They just did not have what we would want in a next generation. As good as the "price" on Ty was, I would have declined if he ignored my stock. However, it took a stern voice from his "master" to leave my sheep alone. He is young and has a way to go. I will probaly never trial him, but he will be happy working our Icelandic sheep and ducks.

 

Again thanks for your responces.