Herding/Trialing as a Sport

[Guest Charles Torre]

Ok here's a comment I will throw out, just for fun. It's completely inflammatory, I know. But I want to try it on for size.

 

(Flamesuit on.)

 

I think that the more trialing becomes a "sport" and the less it is a ... well ... trial, the worse for the breed it is becoming.

 

Somehow, the original notion of the "trial" was for people who used their dogs with livestock to show what they had, evaluate dogs, etc. I have been told that this is one of the principal ways the breed was improved.

 

As trialing becomes a sport (get a dog, train it up pretty much with the aim of competition) the emphasis is too much on winning, money, extra rules, forcing judges to act the same, uniformizing courses and sheep, etc. America at its competitive finest. I can't quite articulate why this imagery worries me, but it does. Does anybody know what I mean? I don't think things have gone too far in the "sport" direction yet; the ISDS style rules, which I guess are steeped in the roots of this business, are still in place after all. But if the "sport" aspect keeps growing, where will we be in 20 years, what with the pressure to make the competitions "fair" and "uniform"? What with the majority of the dog people being in it for the sport, with a small minority being in it for the work, if you know what I mean. Will the trial be more of a competitive venue and less of a dog selector? I hope not. I will be happy to be set straight here. Does anybody ever worry about this?

 

Lest you think that I, a relative novice, am getting high and mighty, I will make clear that I am not much more than a hobby herder with delusions of agricultural grandeur. As such, I am a full-fledged member of the "sport". So I am part of the problem I am worrying about.

 

No, I haven't been drinking.

 

charlie

 

 

(As I reread this article to eliminate the childish grammar errors, I realized that this issue is probably just a version of the old "Do good trial dogs make good working dogs?" debate. Oh well.)

 

[This message has been edited by Charles Torre (edited 12-18-2002).]

[Bill Fosher]

Actually, Charlie, it's not quite a version of the old "working dogs versus trial dogs" chestnut.

 

It's the elephant in the room that we don't ever seem to talk about, and here it is:

 

Will the sports interests in trialing carry the day, and if so, what effect will that have on the Border collie 10, 15, or 100 years from now.

 

Personally, I see the USBCHA guidelines for judging to be the beginning of the sports interest winning out over the traditional livestock interest in trialing. Listening to some of the cowdog people fuss about having judged outwork (not even a fully judged course, mind you, just outrun, lift, and fetch) and you'd think that judges simply look at who's at the post and score their buddies higher and their rivals lower.

 

Now, you could take what I know about golf and shove it up a bug's butt and it would rattle like a BB in boxcar, but it seems to me that each golf course is different, and each day's scores are going to be different -- different wind, different turf conditions, etc., etc., much like dog trialing. Shooting a 95 at one course isn't expected to mean the same thing as shooting a 95 at another course on another day.

 

But for some reason, there's a very vocal and apparently ascendant crowd within the Border collie world that is winning its efforts to have a run that scores a 70 mean a certain thing.

 

I have always thought of scores as being more or less the judge's notes to him or herself. I couldn't care less if first place is 82 or 98, as long as it was the best run of the day. I also couldn't care less if two judges looked at the same run, one scored it an 82 and the other scored it a 98, as long as they came out with the runs in more or less the same order above or below it.

 

We call them judges, not umpires or referees. Let them judge. If someone's no good at judging, don't hire him or her to judge, and don't run under him or her.

 

I sat at one trial and listened to a very poor sport novice handler prattle on about how all judging was arbitrary, much of it was corrupt, and generally trashing judges. After taking all I could take, I turned to her and asked her why she would compete in such a venue if all that were true; why didn't she stick to points and time trials where there would be no questions about whether she got the right number of points.

 

She didn't have an answer for that. I persisted in asking her whether she thought she could bring a fair and even hand to judging, and when it all boiled down, the issue was that she didn't understand what the judges were looking at. She didn't even understand that it was important to keep the sheep on a straight line. She thought you lost points based on how many times your dog disobeyed your commands and such nonsense.

 

The frightening thing was that she had the ears of about a half-dozen or so other novices (who all had less experience than she) and they were starting a conversation about how a "rule book" was needed. It was about six months later that the USBCHA's guidebook was published.

 

I'm hoping that the judges who read the guidebook will take it as suggestions, and not as mandates, and that those who read it will take it only as a set of principles, not as a set of standard point deductions aside from which the judge may not deviate.

 

 

 

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Bill Fosher

Surry, NH

[Guest PairDogx1.5]

On my way through Nevada last summer, I stopped at a motel because the sign said "Basque Owned & Operated". I had made a point a long time ago of learning all I could about some of the more golden days of sheep-raising & shepherding, and the Basques in that part of the country were a big part of it. During my stay at the motel, I got lucky and was able to engage in conversation with the owner, an older gentleman, and of course I asked about "the old days". He pointed this direction & that, describing the flock of 10,000 or so his uncle had over there, the even bigger flock so-and-so had over there, etc., said you couldn't drive that several hundred mile stretch from south of there up into Idaho without seeing nothing but sheep at some times of year. He told me about his cousin that had invented or developed a special kind of shear, and he started in Oregon and worked his way to Maine selling his shears to folks along the way -- that's what paid his way.

 

I would like to be happy about the increase in the numbers of people trialing and the great interest in working Border Collies, because I love everything about them, and because those golden days are gone forever. But I can't be happy about it when it occurs for the wrong reasons. The odds are against me just chucking it all and going out with my dog to help someone with their flock, because that's where my heart leads me. But you'll never find me trialing if it reaches the "Little League Parent" mentality.

 

This is a scary topic, but a really important one, because I can't help feeling the window of opportunity is very small for influencing the direction it all takes.

 

But then, I'm even greener than Charlie, I haven't even reached relative novice yet .

[Guest Charles Torre]

Pairdog: I read a book a while back written by a fellow who described growing up as a Basque shepherd-in-training here in the west. It was really great. If you're interested I'll try to dig it out.

 

In my family often times it doesn't matter so much which side of an issue you're on, as long as you argue. In that spirit, let me take a different point of view from what I tried earlier. Maybe the rise of trialing as "sport" will have the benefit of adding a small amount of vigor to the venerable - but perhpaps declining - tradition of shepherding in this country. I certainly know a lot of people who are getting involved in raising livestock, helping out when they can with "real" livestock operations, getting educated about shepherding, etc. who probably would never have even come close to this world without the attraction of the "sport".

 

charlie

 

[This message has been edited by Charles Torre (edited 12-18-2002).]

[Pipedream Farm]

I agree with Bill F, I don't care if the winning run was scored 98 or 88. What I do care about is having the judge be consistent in his/her point deductions for all runs (which I believed most try to be) and that we are given enough time to complete the run without having to run the sheep around the course. Ya know, move the sheep in a "workman like manor". Lines are important but I feel more emphasis should be placed on how the sheep are treated while on course. I think if scoring is done with the concept of "workman like manor" in mind (straight lines and low stress on the sheep) herding as a sport will continue to be an acceptable (not necessarily perfect) venue for selecting breeding stock.

 

IMHO from my small amount of experience

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Mark Billadeau

 

[This message has been edited by Pipedream Farm (edited 12-19-2002).]

[skd]

I'd be interested in knowing the name and author of the book Charlie mentions. Thanks.

 

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Sheryl Day

 

Beauty without vanity

Strength withoutinsolence

Courage without ferocity

Virtue without vice

John Cam Hobhouse

[Guest PairDogx1.5]

me too!

[Guest Charles Torre]

Right.

 

Title: "A Shepherd Watches, A Shepherd Sings".

 

Authors: Louis irigaray and Theodore Taylor

 

Publisher: Doubleday

 

charlie

[Shawna]

"I also couldn't care less if two judges looked at the same run, one scored it an 82 and the other scored it a 98, as long as they came out with the runs in more or less the same order above or below it."

 

This is, in my opinion, a very important attitude to have if trialing isn't to become just another way to win a ribbon. Once people (hobbyists in particular, who have no real reason to herd except for fun) start focusing on the actual score instead of the overall placing, you will end up with something similar to the obedience competitions where people work on every minute detail, in the end failing the dog and the reason for the trial in the first place.

 

It should be the performance as a whole not the itty bitty parts broken down into an elaborate point system. (Personally I hate obedience trials for this very reason but that's another topic).

 

As soon as Average Joe Person wants to push herding as a regular dog sport (sorry can't think of a better way to say it at the moment) you will find it breaking down into something similar to what all other competetive dog sports have. A way for people to boost their egos. (Gross generalization, but you get the idea)

 

I could be wrong of course, just the personal thoughts of a rank beginner.

 

 

[This message has been edited by Shawna (edited 12-19-2002).]

 

[This message has been edited by Shawna (edited 12-19-2002).]

[Margaret M Wheeler]

Charlie I think you are very right to wonder. Isn't a sheepdog a specialist farmdog? I think I recall that, Glynn Jones captions some of his dog pics with phrases like "a great farm dog." Why does he make that distinction? Why is the great farm dog side by side with the trial dogs?

 

To me, a dog that can work well amidst the hurly burly of everyday life, who can keep her sheep and her family in her mind at once, who can carry on despite the occasional sonic boom is as important to the breed as the sensitive soul who comes out the best dog on a quiet day.

 

Margaret

 

Insert obligatory disclaimers regarding the relative worthlessness of my subnovice opinion here.

 

 

PS Happy New Year everybody!!!!!

 

[This message has been edited by Margaret M Wheeler (edited 12-27-2002).]

[Sue Whiteman]

Hi and a happy new year to all!

I guess I wake up when I see the word Basque...the area is only an hour away from me and I sometimes trial with one or two Basque shepherds. They sometimes discuss this and ISTM that there are more than one opinion there including "all trialling is a waste of time...I have more important things to do". Actually they are probably right...they work very hard in some rough terrain at times. They do, however, get some of the best opportunities to use their dogs "properly" and if they have Border Collies (many still have the original Labrit terrier) they are usually used for easy gathering and moving. Relatively very few are used "fully" ie separating, holding,penning other than moving through gates and then not at any great distance. The shepherd is usually there to help guide the sheep through. This is not only because the shepherd really doesn't have time to learn how to train up his dog but that the flocks and fields are now smaller due to farming regulation and financial support. This is, however due to start to reverse a propos of cows which have been getting more support. But the future of sheepkeeping is still unclear.

I have thought about Charles' question off and on and have come to a very non-static conclusion (cummon someone, give me a rational push to change my mind)that the number of hours actually needed by shepherds, who have become fewer in number anyway, is less and less. If we only bred and trained those dogs which will be used for "real work" we would have to sell a lot more as pets. And that WOULD be the start of a slippery slope for the Border Collie. We can encourage those who love the breed to learn more about them, keep a small flock for the optimal real work we can offer, seek out other real work and sell pups only to those who feel the same. But we can't all buy a farm, a flock of hundreds and give up our day jobs.

I have heard more about trialling producing weaker dogs, rather than producing obedient ones or that trialling has become too rule bound, though France is pretty fluid when it comes to obeying any rules (big grin). I think what we do with rules is not the root of the concern. It is what we want as a Border Collie in the future. Do we want cow dogs? Strong sheep dogs? Easier sheep dogs? Sport dogs? Family dogs? All of the above? And does it not matter where we live? Those in the Western part of the USA will want something very different than I may do.

In France and throughtout most of the EU (as it is as I write and that includes Great Britain)the keeping of sheep is a declining activity. Pasture doesn't pay and cereals are replacing grass. Therefore the Border Collie isn't required to be trained up to anything like trials standards UNLESS someone takes the time and has the passion to maximise their dog. I truly believe that this is the only way we will keep the dog fully occupied and moving forward. Towards what is the question. I can more easily tell you what I would NOT like to see in the dog in the future. However as history has shown, the Border Collie is infinitely flexible in its being useful. Perhaps teh future will see a small family of stronger dogs fit for working the few larger and more difficult jobs and others for sport. Those farmers who want to compete will have the edge, certainly. As is the case now. Very few if any hobby dogs ever trial to a national standard in GB. I think no hobby dog has ever gone into the final of the International.

Sorry to go on...but it is a Big Subject.Just some off the cuff thoughts.

 

Sue in France