ikw Posted November 20, 2002 Report Share Posted November 20, 2002 Fellow listers and lurkers, I just finished reading the last thread from "2 questions". Don't know about anyone else but I've been pounding these keys for the past 2 years,trying to be a help,any help to those in need with their working or non-working dogs. I'm pleading now to NOT TO ANSWER back to the thread written by someone who seems to have a bone to pick with Bill Gary. I know Bill Gary personally,I know his dogs ( frankly I like his dogs better than him) **put the biggest grin on this spot**,there are times when we've ARGUED our points relentlessly and may have sound like spitting cats to those who doesn't know us,however,we are still friends and will be for a long time. That is of course, if I won't catch him as he tries to run over a cat and run him off the road (Ha! my truck is bigger than his). Please folks,do this as a favour to me. ------------------ Inci Willard Clearville,PA 814-784-3414 ikw@pennswoods.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBluez Tess Posted November 20, 2002 Report Share Posted November 20, 2002 Looks like this "Fred" has a bone to pick with Gary. Course "Fred" is more than willing to bash Bill but refuses to answer any questions anyone asks of him. Gee, I wonder if this "Fred" has competed at an ISDS Open level course and finished, has sucessful trialed dogs he trained himself on an ISDS course, has run a ISD trial and willing to backup up his statement of his perfect dogs with proof, has a sheep farm, he claims alot but no proof....or is a troll? At least some other listers who *really disagree* with Gary are not afraid to put their names and websites up..... Diane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabreur Posted November 21, 2002 Report Share Posted November 21, 2002 Don't feed the troll. It makes me furious that such a coward can anonymously attack a guy who obviously knows a lot about real working dogs and cares desperately about them. I'm a newbie here, and I don't know who moderates the board, but I would strongly support a policy that requires users to have an email address on file that other users can see. Mark Ray Heidelberg, Germany Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted November 21, 2002 Report Share Posted November 21, 2002 Well thanks, Inci, and I like my dogs better'n me... Mark, the problem with that is that there are some genuinally nice folks, who for various reasons, choose to remain anonymous...some have been harassed, some just choose to ask questions nicely and return a low profile. I'm not the only person to recieve filthy emails from the lost ones out there. Personal attacks and lies, throughout all history, have best been done from the depths of human despair - by those who are afraid, who have thier beleifs challenged, or who are simply sociopaths...some of those folks have found themselves a place on the internet. Like "Fred". Since marketing dogs or pups isn't something I need to worry about, I really don't care if those folks who seem to be aligned with "Fred" smear me, my dogs, or whatever scares them at any particular moment... I admit to feeling disheartened at times, when I need to spend more time dealing with congenital liars, thiefs, and bindlestiffs than talking with folks about thier dogs... By the way, I use the term "bindlestiff" in the 1930's camp-style - where it was used to connote a hobo so low and cowardly he would steal only from his fellow hobos and not from the rich "citizens". But it does bring into focus, for most folks who read these boards, exactly WHERE the akc breeders are coming from...a place of darkness, deception, and fear. If that wasn't true, their representatives on this board would actually carry on adult level discussions, not race into a room, shit on the floor, and then claim, "It stinks in here" (the allusion is credited to Mr. Bill Fosher). Now, me, on the other hand, I'm Scots-Irish, and I come from a long line of folks to whom fighting, drinking, loving, writing and praying are the lifeblood of this plain of existence...and I just wish I had decent opponents in this fight, rather than retarded and malformed children. If you think this is a dog fight, you should have read Inci and I a few months back, and heck, Eileen and I have scratched at each others eyes as well... The difference comes about because, when all is said and done, we love the dogs. They are our focus, in many case our true life, and in my case, my figurative and literal boon companions. And that is something all the liars and thiefs simply cannot take away, because it is truly mine - and their attempts to steal it will never win it for thier souls. ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com [This message has been edited by PrairieFire (edited 11-21-2002).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amy Posted November 21, 2002 Report Share Posted November 21, 2002 Folks, I do believe you need to cut poor Fred some slack here. It's apparent from him not wanting to tell anything about himself or his dogs that he feels inferior and is lacking in self esteem. People that lack self esteem have the need to slam others and try to make them look bad with the misguided notion that it will serve to make themselves look better. For some reason Fred feels threatened by Bill and his dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary & Dogs Posted November 21, 2002 Report Share Posted November 21, 2002 I think this guy has been around for a while - coming back over and over under different names. Always sounds kind of the same. If it is someone who doesn't sound quite right - doesn't know quite what he is talking about - is a little off - has some information but not enough to sound like he really knows something - just don't respond. Kind of like the guy with the 3 month old pup that killed two wild goats. ------------------ Mary Hartman Kansas City, MO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted November 21, 2002 Report Share Posted November 21, 2002 A couple of comments from a non-herding Aussie (that?s an Aussie person, not an Aussie Shepherd!) ? and a funny to lighten things up a bit. I generally just lurk on this board, because our experience in Oz is different ? and because my dogs come from show lines (I know, I know ? but I did do my homework and I did choose my breeders very carefully ? as they chose me ? and my pups are neutered) ? but although I cringe a bit sometimes at comments from the herding folks, I always respect their rights to make those comments. Even from this distance, I can read between the lines the love and respect folks like Bill Gary have for their dogs (remember ?For a good dog??) It?s almost enough to make me consider taking my guys to sheep ? but then since I don?t own a farm they?d still be playing, ? not doing a ?proper? job. IMHO no way does Bill deserve the kind of stuff he?s been getting from whoever. As far as CL goes ? yes it is in a number of breeds (and humans as Batten?s disease), and yes the first case in BCs in Australia was diagnosed in 1980 (though this doesn?t mean it originated in Oz, I hasten to add), and yes there are a number of known carriers identified and publicized by BC Clubs in Oz, and their progeny may well be in USA now. I think the approach taken by BC clubs in Oz is the right one ? it?s here ? never mind how it got here ? let?s find out all we can about it and do everything we can to stamp it out. BC Clubs are heavily supporting the major research effort being undertaken by vet schools in Sydney and Melbourne, and responsible breeders are required to give all purchasers a copy of a brochure outlining the known information about CL, so that should dogs prove to be affected, they can be notified, and dealt with appropriately. And now for the funny --- One day the first grade teacher was reading the story of Chicken Little to her class. She came to the part of the story where Chicken Little tried to warn the farmer. She read, ".... and so Chicken Little went up to the farmer and said, "The sky is falling, the sky is falling!" The teacher paused then asked the class, "And what do you think that farmer said?" One little girl raised her hand and said, "I think he said: 'Holy Sh*t! A talking chicken!'" The teacher was unable to teach for the next 10 minutes. You've probably all heard it - but I thought it was fun. ------------------ Barb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikw Posted November 21, 2002 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2002 Well I tell you. The gentleman named Fred slipped up a bad one. Our dogs aren't tools,he writes. I'll respond: Anyone who farms knows that touching a man's tools (tractors,bobcats,etc.,) is punishable by death. Farmers/ranchers may not spend a single thought or a second about fixing little things in their houses but are willing to raise the dead for a repair work in their sheds or barns which may hold their tools and tractors. In our household,my husband is quite lax about my wants. Whatever makes you happy,dear! is his motto. This,of course,as long as I stay away from HIS tractors,HIS tools and HIS space in the barn. I'm looking into getting this fancy,double A/C unit, 12 hole Jones Dog trailer for my poochies. Man tells me,fine. I tell him what's going to cost him,he tells me,fine. I told him when not in use because of the A/C units,best if it's stored and I need space in the upper barn. Geez,you'd think WWIII broke out. I counted the equipments not in use and will never be in use and by eliminating them,I could easily squeeze 20ft. trailer,I guess that didn't sit all too well,he just got up and left. That was two days ago. He finally called to leave a message saying,perhaps I should look into storage space somewhere else but under no circumstances,he'll remove all his much needed equipments to make any space. So,when a man considers his dogs as his "tools",you betta he'll be treating them far better than his wife or his kids. ------------------ Inci Willard Clearville,PA 814-784-3414 ikw@pennswoods.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBluez Tess Posted November 22, 2002 Report Share Posted November 22, 2002 >>As far as CL goes ......and yes there are a number of known carriers identified and publicized by BC Clubs in Oz, and their progeny may well be in USA now. I think the approach taken by BC clubs in Oz is the right one<< I have upmost respect for the BC Clubs and their approach. By not sweeping this under the rug, fixing the know carriers and trying to id the possible carriers, this goes a great distance for me. For some of the Show Border Collies folks this means they take their dog out of the breeding lines and I know of one who was a top Show Dog and was pulled. These folks who are doing this are trying to do right by trying to remove CL. Diane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted November 22, 2002 Report Share Posted November 22, 2002 Thanks for the thoughts, folks. Your kind words are helping me to have fun with these fools - it is SO easy to make fun of them, and it SO obvious who they truly ARE, especially deep in thier hearts... I was looking for a reason to write some stuff, "Fred" and Sue are helping me to refine some things before I actually work on them for publication...if I decide to do that, anyway. But it is the thoughts and kindnesses of you guys that help me take it all as what it truly is - silly foolishness. By the way, Barb, thanks for the comment on "For a Good Dog". It seems to have been one of those things that gets emailed around the world - it was sent back to me by a friend in Spain, who thought it was pretty funny that he got it from someone in South Africa with my name still on it... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Williams Posted November 22, 2002 Report Share Posted November 22, 2002 First- Bill, while other "features" come and go on the Cow Dog News website, "For a Good Dog" stays put per poplular request. Just thought you'd like to know. Second - As far as the other... a bumber sticker I read recently made me think of this, um, gentleman, it read simply "Mean People Suck." But you know, mean people can help themselves pretty easily, all they have to do is decide to share a smile, a compliment, or what have you and it happens. Ignorant people, however, have a tougher time of it, they have to choose to have an open mind, they have decide to educate themselves and they have to acknowledge that long held beliefs can sometimes fall to ruin in the process and the process can sometimes be painful. There was a time when I avoided my own old posts at all costs, I was ashamed that I was so very ignorant. Then I realized that they were merely proof that I had been busy opening my mind and educating myself. Some folks have yet to turn that corner, and some never will. Julia A. Williams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Williams Posted November 22, 2002 Report Share Posted November 22, 2002 Oh, and for the record, while I don't always agree with each every post, even by those I respect and admire - Bill Gary is certainly NOT the one I find to be mean and ignorant, although he can certainly respond to posts reeking of both with the ferocity of a mother bear protecting her cubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBluez Tess Posted November 22, 2002 Report Share Posted November 22, 2002 >>I'm pleading now to NOT TO ANSWER back to the thread written by someone who seems to have a bone to pick with Bill Gary.<< What is really ironic is that this *FRED* states the Bill does not do health checks on his dogs (I guess Fred read Bill's website and since the info wasn't there Fred made an assumption) Bill has done eye checks on his dog and pups. His dogs are all clear and the pups eyes were done. All passed. As for the hips... his dogs hips were shot and graded by the orthopedic surgeons at the Uiversity of Minnesota Veterinary Teaching hospital. Anyone who is interested in a pup can see the xrays and actually talk to the surgeons - not just vets - orthopedic surgeons - themselves, which I think is pretty damm good. His dogs hips were rated excellent or good. But don't forget that his dogs work too. They have proven themselves. So Fred choose to miss or ignore a few key points and *assumes* that Bill does not do health checks on his dogs nor have his dogs proven themselves. Bill has laid out all this info on the boards before so anyone who has read the boards who know this. Some people chose to ignore the facts and slander. Diane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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