teresaserrano Posted February 7, 2015 Report Share Posted February 7, 2015 Tess and I have been working on distance comands. We do the traditional "you stay, I walk over there, I ask you for sit, down stand, etc. " She's good at that but it's boring so we also play games involving distance comands. When we walk the woods, we often play the "pinecones game", where I wait for her to wander a bit ahead, ask for a down, then throw a pinecone in the oposite direction. She loves it. She will often down imediatly, but as often will freeze, half crouching, head low, one paw up, staring at me intently. Now, that's NOT a down. On the other hand, it looks so... I don't know... right? Perfect? Beautifull? So then I thought, what she's doing is an halt, so maybe I should mix down and halt comands, so she has the chance to practice that prefered position and be right. But then, with a halt command she will mostly crouch and slowly walk foward, staring at me. Which is NOT an halt. But kind of looks right... in a strange way... or at least interesting. These games are when she most shows her herding nature, and that's wonderfull to watch. So. I probably should stop admiring how great she looks and start working hard on getting those responses more reliable, right? By the way, she does understand the commands, we've worked a lot on them. She just gets so involved in the game it's hard for her to do them right and fast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted February 7, 2015 Report Share Posted February 7, 2015 So. I probably should stop admiring how great she looks and start working hard on getting those responses more reliable, right? By the way, she does understand the commands, we've worked a lot on them. She just gets so involved in the game it's hard for her to do them right and fast. LOL!! I would probably keep admiring how great she looks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sekah Posted February 7, 2015 Report Share Posted February 7, 2015 It's all about criteria. I heard Susan Garrett once say "Sometimes equals always" when it comes to dogs. If you start to let your criteria slip, it becomes a, well, slippery slope and your behaviour is likely to degrade. Whether that actually matters is up to you to decide! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted February 7, 2015 Report Share Posted February 7, 2015 Our collie has always had two "lie downs" - one which means what it says and one for agility which means crouch. He doesn't get confused any more than the working dog gets confused if "lie down" sometimes just means "stop". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teresaserrano Posted February 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 Thanks for your answers Mum24dogs, it tends to be situational, right? I was thinking a bit along the same lines, and it is just a game after all, although it's suposed to help in teaching skills. At training, last class we did this thing where we where running with the dog heeling off leash, we would give a sit or down command and keep running. Tess and I do that a lot while walking but that was the first time we did it running, and I noticed that although she stopped imediatly and stayed on that spot until called, the sits and downs where sometimes creatively interpreted (she did a very nice bow a couple of times, front paws down, butt in the air, that made me laugh hard, but it was NOT a sit or a down). I supose she was a bit confused by all that running. We have to work on it. She's 18 mo now and smart as a whip, but has a whole lot to learn before I can begin to think she's half well trained. She's delightfull to work with though, just amazing, so cheerfull and willing. I've been teaching her "play dead" for the last couple of months, working on it a bit once every 2 weeks which is not the best way for a dog to learn something quickly But then a few days ago she suddenly understood what it was all about, I could clearly see the moment she got it, and then it was an instant thing, when she got it she got it completely, sound comand only, hand comand only, here there and everywhere. It took a bit as we weren't working on it consistently but then it was just... completely understood and instantly generalized. Very neat to watch happening. I'll keep working on the down at a distance when she's distracted untill this complete understanding dawns on her Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teresaserrano Posted February 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 By the way, when she does the crouch thing while slowly walking foward instead of a down, I've been doing two things: one is walking/running towards her while saying no and repeating the down command. It's tricky as there is a fine line between her not giving a crap about me charging her, and putting tail between her legs and slinking away, which of course I don't want in no way. The other thing is just looking at her crouch and intent stare at the pinecone in my hand, and say: nope, not a down. No down, no play. And I keep walking as I watch the birds flying in the air. She doesn't like that one and next time I ask for a down she's usually quite quick. Time after that, though, not so much... What do you guys think, are both strategies usefull? Should I keep alternating them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sekah Posted February 8, 2015 Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 Have you seen this blog post? It might help with your creeping issue (if you feel that it is an issue). http://denisefenzi.com/2014/08/27/what-is-more____than____/ I'm using the "what's more down than down?" thing with Cohen right now while working her drop on recalls. I've incorporated a back up and then a fold down into the exercise to really crispen up her response. I'm having a lot of fun with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teresaserrano Posted February 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 Thanks for the link, Sekah, that is very interesting. I'll teach her to put chin on ground and go from there, it's an excelent idea. A back up is the dog moving backwards, right? What is a fold down? And what is your technique for perfecting drop on recalls? Basically, how do you teach them? Start close and slowly increase distance? What teaching tricks do you use? I'm having a lot more creeping than I want, mostly, I think, because I'm not making myself clear enough. She can't do something well if I'm not explaining it clearly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sekah Posted February 8, 2015 Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 A back up is just backwards, yep. I call her to come and she comes running. I tell her to back up, and then while she's backing up I ask her to down and she uses the backwards momentum to just plop back on her butt. Eventually I'll fade the back cue and hopefully just have a cued down where she shifts her weight backwards and downs immediately. Previously I would cue her to drop on recall and she'd slow down, creep a few steps then drop to a down with her forward momentum, which wasn't ideal for my circumstances. I first taught a drop on recall (and down in motion) as a down on a mat, and then I faded the mat to a smaller cloth, then a leash and then nothing. So, I would start by paying the dog to down on the mat regardless of your position, starting closer and upon success, increasing distance. Nothing too fancy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingfisher7151 Posted February 8, 2015 Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 Thanks for the link, Sekah! This might fix the problem I've been having! Keeper has very nice, quick downs around the barn and while riding, but as soon as we get formal he likes to dribble into a down. He knows "head down" and "back", so I will definitely be trying these! I love it! (I love Cohen on Facebook by the way) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sekah Posted February 9, 2015 Report Share Posted February 9, 2015 (I love Cohen on Facebook by the way) Thanks! I feel like a weirdo to have a dog page, but I had way too many people I didn't know on my main page who were clearly just in it for the dog stuff. It's been less than a month, and it seems to be taking off. The internet is a crazy place. Glad you somehow found her! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingfisher7151 Posted February 9, 2015 Report Share Posted February 9, 2015 The Canine Conditioning Group. You always post great stuff! I'm just a wallflower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted February 9, 2015 Report Share Posted February 9, 2015 Have you seen this blog post? It might help with your creeping issue (if you feel that it is an issue). http://denisefenzi.com/2014/08/27/what-is-more____than____/ I'm using the "what's more down than down?" thing with Cohen right now while working her drop on recalls. I've incorporated a back up and then a fold down into the exercise to really crispen up her response. I'm having a lot of fun with it. That's how we taught our old er collie. But he also has a "lie down" which is his choice but usually upright, "Settle" with one hip roles over, and "Flat", plus a modifier of " Head down" for all but the last. This is a dog that does not drop like a stone into your a down so we had to work with what he was able to do. Youngster, on the other hand, can drop on the spot so it's not an issue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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