Genetics and the popular sire

[Maxi]

Could DNA testing be done to discern parentage if 2 sires were known to have mated with the same bitch?

Yes... I know someone who had to do this recently, when his bitch managed to get out of her kennel and he didn't know which of his dogs was the sire. He had to get the whole litter tested, because sometimes it can have more than one father.

 

But that is now...of course many of the times that the wrong dog ihss been claimed to be the sire (and even dam in some kennels) are historical..but I have no doubt that the problem still exists (still hear the stories)

[emilyfalk]

Kristen,

 

There are breeders who purposely put 2 males to a bitch to be sure to get pups, but then DO follow up with DNA testing. For instance, the same bitch is bred to a dog and his son in an effort to be sure the paternal line continues with that selected cross. It's done with AI, too, but that's another discussion.

 

That's not to say that the majority of breedings where multiple sires were or could have been used do this. But it most definitely can be done, and I think it says something about the breeder if they don't choose to do it (speaking current day, not historically before the test was commercially available).

[juliepoudrier]

Yep, I've heard of it being done also because a bitch is limited in the number of litters she can have and if a breeder would like two crosses with two different sires, then breeding to two is one way to do that. But the follow up to that is that of course you'd DNA test to see which pups were sired by which dog.

 

And that brings up a question maybe Emily or someone else in the know about breeding and AI can answer. If you mate two males to a female in hopes of getting a "mixed bag" of offspring, statistically are you more likely to get offspring mainly from one sire?

 

And last, if breeding a bitch to a sire and his son, I assume the DNA testing to differentiate would then depend on the dam of the son? I ask because I wonder how accurate the tests can be when close family members are involved. For example, if you're dealing with a line breeding or inbreeding situation, will DNA really be able to tell you who the sire is if the two sires are also closely related? (In this scenario it would be possible for the bitch and both potential sires to be related--is the test specific enough to differentiate that?) IIRC, the test results speak to probabilities and not absolutes, so I'm guessing the probabilities become more muddied when the dogs in question are all related?

 

J.

[Maxi]

And last, if breeding a bitch to a sire and his son, I assume the DNA testing to differentiate would then depend on the dam of the son? I ask because I wonder how accurate the tests can be when close family members are involved. For example, if you're dealing with a line breeding or inbreeding situation, will DNA really be able to tell you who the sire is if the two sires are also closely related? (In this scenario it would be possible for the bitch and both potential sires to be related--is the test specific enough to differentiate that?) IIRC, the test results speak to probabilities and not absolutes, so I'm guessing the probabilities become more muddied when the dogs in question are all related?

 

J.

in general, the accuracy of DNA profiling/paternity testing depends on how many markers (microsatellite/SNPs) are analysed.

 

Wrt Border collies, taken from the ISDS website which promotes the services of Animal DNA Diagnostics Ltd.

"the result will indicate whether the proposed parent is excluded as a parent or qualifies as a parent. Please note that while exclusions are 100% accurate, qualifications are not. In order to avoid erroneous parentage qualifications breeders should ensure that all possible sires are included in the analysis – this is especially important where possible sires are related."

 

 

[juliepoudrier]

Yeah, that's the info I got when I DNA'ed a puppy before. I was just curious when sires are related whether they can actually pinpoint the real sire or only that both could be the sire.

 

J.

[Debbie Meier]

I've heard of more then one person who had dna testing done to verify parentage and they could not pin point the sire when both sires were closely related, know of two that told me first hand that was their own expirence. Reading other conversations about split litters, many seem to share the same experiences, that the pups were all by one sire or the other.

 

I could see someone covering a bitch with two males if there was only going to be one shot at breeding the female or if there was a lot of money invested into that particular anticipated litter to help ensure that pups were at minimum produced, but other wise, I don't see the point, why mess around with having to send in parentage on everyone.

 

Can also see accidental split litters, bitch owner takes bitch to stud of choice, breed bitch, bitch goes home and gets tied up with the neighbors working dog....oops. Wonder if bitch owner would even say anything. Or just register the pups as if they were all out of the male of choice..how would the stud owner know unless they got to see pups at later date and they clearly were not typical representatives of their stud. Good reason to not let bitches go home until verified that they are out of heat and no longer receptive to a male.

 

Thinking about it, I believe that is part of why AQHA started their parentage testing with AI breeding, way too easy to do some hanky panky. Also have heard of people receiving semen for two covers and breeding more then one female with it. Hard to trust people, especially when there is money involved.

[Maxi]

Hard to trust people, especially when there is money involved.

Ain't that the truth..unfortunately, it's a murky old world out there and when it comes to buying dogs and pups, it really is a case of 'buyer beware'.

[Pam Wolf]

Re: falsification of the papers, I know of several who have done that. Some for litters where two dogs may have bred a bitch and one where the owner lied about AKC parentage of a dog registered after the cut off date.

 

And way back when I registered my first dogs with ABCA You had to hand print info on dogs not in the ABCA registry. I carefully printed out all the info and double checked only to receive papers with no info from the dogs not
ABCA registered! Had to call ABCA and get things recorded.

 

My first Border Collie (way back in 1979 had one ancestor incorrectly named but with the correct number. It pays to double check paperwork.

[bcnewe2]

Well since I deal in bitches as my preference, I can't see how I could live with not knowing who was the sire of pups I was going to produce. Lying or not testing the dogs would drive me crazy in the end. Money wouldn't be the motivator it would be a serious desire to know what I bred. If someone thought 2 dogs were good enough to be bred, how could someone settle on always wondering?

That is not withstanding all the nefarious people out there. Just the person wanting a good dog and taking the time to do it right.

 

Never thought about the idea of using 2 males on purpose. It would stand to wonder or at least to me, if the bitch was good enough to be bred, why would she only be able to be bred one time?

 

Very interesting topic

[juliepoudrier]

Kristen, it could be a matter of logistics. When I was reading about the practice, what I read made sense at the time (but now I can't remember exactly what the argument was). But I think the honest breeder would do the testing if, for example, an accident happened. As someone else (Liz?) noted, DNA testing hasn't always been available, so I suppose we can't really judge actions in the past based on the technology we have today.

 

==========================

 

My Lark was from an accidental litter. The owner of the bitch said the sire could only be one of two dogs, one of which I liked and one I didn't like, but she was pretty sure it was the former dog. We did the genetic testing and the first dog was indeed the sire. But if testing hadn't been available, she wouldn't have been wrong, at least in this case. Just telling this story to illustrate that not all such occurrences (guessing the sire) are completely off base, nor are they all done for "nefarious" purposes. I paid nothing for Lark, so knowing the sire or naming the wrong sire wasn't going to make a difference to the breeder's bottom line. All the testing did was allow me to register her with confidence.

 

J.