Please help me plan ahead for an incoming bc?

[Bogwoppit]

Hiya!

When running Friday night RPGs, we often say "No plots survive interaction with the players.", I'm assuming "No plots survive interaction with Border Collies." also applies, but I'd like to know what I'm wrong about, and to what extent I can plan.

I have a few questions and ideas, but please don't feel I want you to sit and answer all of my worries, any area in which you can offer advice is so greatly appreciated.

I live in the UK, and most of my childhood was spent staying on farms, attending Irish music sessions, and shepherds meets. For one summer many years ago, my best friend was a BC who must have judged that I was pretty miserable (I was very closed off, and bullied a lot), and he gradually got me playing, running and working happily on "his" farm. I have no fancy that he did much more than read my body language, and constantly bothered me to stop hiding in corners. But he was a good friend.

I've had this on my shelf since that summer, over fifteen years now, and I'm finally at the point in my life that I can bring one of my own home.

(Yes, I'm going to adopt a hideous porcelain rabbit as my new pet)

Realistically I'm looking at the end of spring 2015, as I'm saving and learning to drive, also depends what pups are available. As yet I'm still learning breeder warning signs. It's so hard!

I would like a dog that I can take out on the moors and exercise, have fun with, and there are a few herding and trialing groups near where I live that seem worth considering.

KC and ISDS reg seem easily identified, but then some breeders claim both, some claim relation to dogs registered with one or the other, and some on Petfinder look uncannily like staffies.

I know being in another country, folks can give only general advice, but if I share a few places I'm looking to find a pup, would anyone be able to give me feedback on how good or bad an idea each sounds?

I run my own business at home, so I have time to settle and train a new dog or puppy. My partner works away during the day, and is deeply afraid of most dogs, so it's been a few years working out how best to handle this, for him and our three cats.

We are thinking a puppy or rescue puppy that he and the cats could adjust to, and we can work early on physical barriers. Are we looking at this the wrong way? Whilst puppies are very intense, they're also smaller than adults and can be lifted away. I am not averse to a calmer adult dog, there are two rescues I put faith in right now.

The dog or puppy will have it's own "room" to begin with, which is a large storage room in the hallway, shut off by a second door from the rest of the house. I was thinking to fit a crate in there, with the room's door ajar for the first week or so and then take the door off its hinges and fit a baby gate if things go fairly smoothly.

We'd use the door to stop any meetings before we were ready. It also means quick access to the outdoors for puppy and a quiet place for calming down. There's room for a person to lay down in there and certainly room in the hall for lots of sprawl and play time.

I plan to attend training from the very start because of my inexperience with young dogs, and so that I may teach my other half the absolute necessary commands to keep dog and family safe.

Do Border collies fare well in mixed or "Puppy classes" or in your experience are one to one sessions with trainers more successful? Perhaps a mix of both?

Without any experience in "leave it" or distraction, may it even be worth me getting a trainer in to give insight during early cat introductions?

I'll stop typing and post this before it gets any longer! :s

[Maxi]

I can probably help answer some of the UK specific stuff.. but as most of your queries relate to general things about having a new pup/dog in the house, I hope that others will chip-in.

Read the tips on getting a border collie and look at the list of red flags. Although these are written for "US dogs", some of these warnings may help you decide about UK breeders- Remember that claims on a website (or email/phone discussions with the breeder) do not necessarily indicate the conditions that the pups are raised in!

 

Also look through the previous posts & discussions. Many of your pup-rearing/training questions will probably already have been covered. Even if one discussion seems to cover similar ground to another, there are often new additional nuggets of wisdom somwehere in the middle and one of these may relate more closely to your own situation or else suit your own ideas of dog ownership more.

 

 

For one summer many years ago, my best friend was a BC who must have judged that I was pretty miserable....

I run my own business at home, so I have time to settle and train a new dog or puppy. My partner works away during the day, and is deeply afraid of most dogs, so it's been a few years working out how best to handle this, for him and our three cats.

 

..I can see you dream of having a dog who will be similar to the ‘summer pal’ you had when growing up. But have you really thought through what would happen if your partner decides 6 months (or whenever) into owning a dog that he really CAN’T cope with one in your house?

 

You must consider this very carefully. If your dog is a pet then locking it up for hours on end in another room is probably is not a good option (IMHO). Often pet BCs just like to spend time "hanging out" around their owners (as well as having periods of physical and mental stimulation).

ISDS registeration

why do you need this for a pet? ISDS registration doesn’t guarantee temperament. Around me, I see BCs (both working & pet) who are not ISDS registered. Like humans, they come in all personalities - some are very laid back, others are more reactive and sensitive.

Obviously some of this is due to the way they have been brought up, but it is also due to their genetics. If you mainly want a pet to 'do stuff' with, then you may be better just asking the breeder what the dog/bitch is like and going to see them rather than travelling a long distance to buy a dog with an ISDS pedigree.

 

If you specifically want a farm pup, then the Farmers Guardian classifieds (also available on line) usually have several (ISDS & non ISDS reg) litters advertised. Alternatively if you live in Derbyshire then there probably will be signs of ‘pups for sale’ at the end of some farm lanes. My first BC pup was one of these from Yorkshire. He was a pet and my best pal for 15 years.

 

Having said all that I don’t know how many individuals who are intent to breed for work ability would be willing to sell a pup to a first-time pet dog owner.

UK KC registration.

If you want to compete in agility/flyball/obedience etc, then you may need KC registration because I believe that some competitions require it (I don’t compete at these sports so others would have to clarify this).

 

Obviously, this registration has nothing to do with ‘breed standards’ as many mutts & mixed breeds compete at these sports - and there is a ‘KC activity register‘ which any type of dog can be listed on - no doubt for a fee.

 

In addition, all ISDS registered dogs (no matter what they look like) are automatically eligible to be registered with the UK KC (no doubt again for a fee). So breeders who are offering both ISDS/KC registration are almost certainly catering (in part) for the pet/agility market.

Cat introductions.
My cat grew up with dogs, so she may not be typical (she is also now deceased from old age).

I always let her meet the pup from day one. These early meetings were always very much on the cat’s terms. She choose when to approach and she would decide when she’d had enough - and she would let the pup know in no uncertain terms if he/she overstepped the mark.

 

It was only in the last few months of her life as she became frailer and my current pup got bigger and more boisterous then I needed to intervene and tell the pup to mind her manners and respect the cat.

 

Anyway.. I'm sure others have plenty of things to say about that as well as the rescue-vs-not rescued debate & other pup/dog rearing matters.

 

good luck with whatever you decide.

[gcv-border]

I am glad to hear you are putting a lot of thought and research into your first BC (or maybe dog if you find another type of dog that steals your heart).

 

Re: cats If you get a very young pup - 8-12 weeks old - IMHO they do not have any ill intentions towards cats. They are just curious and playful - which some cats may not appreciate. I do not have cats that will put the pup in their place. They just run and hide - until they get used to a new dog. (In fact, one cat has a 'Kick me' sign on her back as all dogs (I will occasionally foster a dog) seem to target her.) Whatever the case, it is up to you to be your cat's protector. What worked for me was to keep close watch on the pup and let him calmly investigate the cats, but if he started pestering or running at them, I would just, also calmly, pick him up and say 'No cat' and close him off in a side room by himself for about one minute. (he was removed from the situation) If he repeated his behavior, I repeated my behavior. A couple of times, he would come out and immediately want to chase the cat again. The most repeats I did was 3 (I think) before he decided getting closed off in a room by himself was not his idea of fun. The tone of my voice when I picked him up was not punitive, it was more like a "Oops! So sorry, so bad." I don't think it took more than a week for him to get the idea that chasing cats was not a good idea. He will still occasionally challenge a cat, but I just say "no cat" and he stops.

 

Off to feed the dogs and cats. Best of Luck in your research.

[Bogwoppit]

Thank you very much for replying, and the time you took out to do so.

I'm hoping that I don't break the quoting system to answer some of the things you raise.

Read the tips on getting a border collie and look at the list of red flags. Although these are written for "US dogs", some of these warnings may help you decide about UK breeders- Remember that claims on a website (or email/phone discussions with the breeder) do not necessarily indicate the conditions that the pups are raised in!

These are things I'm still learning, and one of the reasons I am scoping out sites with a mix of people using them to sell, like Preloved and PetFinder, I've started to spot things I think are bad signs. For example there's a seller near me that constantly has a litter ready to go right now, and another that offers collection or delivery from three different cities.

I have a couple of friends who work in foster and rescue, and so if I go to actually buy a pup, I am hoping one of them will come with me. Any raised eyebrows or concerns from them and I'm out, distance/deposit/breeder be damned,

I'm spending a bit of time each day reading topics here, from what's gone woefully wrong, to what people have found joyful. It's no doggy bootcamp but it's infinitely more helpful than many of the people I talk to day to day. "You don't want one, they're all mad."

..I can see you dream of having a dog who will be similar to the ‘summer pal’ you had when growing up. But have you really thought through what would happen if your partner decides 6 months (or whenever) into owning a dog that he really CAN’T cope with one in your house?

I'm not under the impression that the dog I met back then was doing much more than reading my body language and picking on me as I was paying attention to him wanting to play. But there has to be a spark for an interest, and he was mine.

Recently I've realised I can accommodate a dog in my life, and thinking "What dog?" for nearly a year, I realised I'm still fond of bcs.

Regarding my OH, it's been a very long discussion (with me checking he's not just agreeing to keep me quiet). We've been together seven years, however we live in seperate homes (which may sound unusual). He spends 5-6 nights a week here and chooses sometimes to go home. He has conceded shelties and bcs do not frighten him, as his experience with them as a kid was overly positive, but he does not want an active role in looking after "my" dog. I can live with this, much as he can live with me not sharing all of his hobbies.

Six months along the line, or during "teenage horrors" I would imagine it'll be extremely trying for both of us. He might even disappear home at night to sleep. However neither of us are the sort to chuck things in, and we'd look at addressing the problems as they arise. Right now I dose one cat daily with injections at home, so whilst it's apples and oranges, I know that patience with animals is very important.

You must consider this very carefully. If your dog is a pet then locking it up for hours on end in another room is probably is not a good option (IMHO). Often pet BCs just like to spend time "hanging out" around their owners (as well as having periods of physical and mental stimulation).

Apologies if that sounded my intention, I may have written up a flow of ideas and been unclear. Whilst I mentioned making an introductory "room" space for any dog, he or she cannot live there! If nothing else I need somewhere to put my boots. One of the reasons I am waiting for late Spring is that I'm going to throw out some furniture and rearrange the downstairs so that there's 4'x4' space in the corner right by the sofa for the dog bed. In the evenings we hang out there, and during the day I work in the middle of the room.

Maxi, on 05 Nov 2014 - 08:25, said:

ISDS registeration

why do you need this for a pet? ISDS registration doesn’t guarantee temperament.

Not sure if you're asking me or being rhetorical, but the only reason I've been paying attention to *any* registration is a (possibly false) notion that ISDS means someone cares about keeping the dogs as dogs, and not puppy milling.

KC I have noticed can mean checked and regulated, but can also mean nine tenths of F A.. Both often seem to mention hip scoring and testing, some on a near homeopathic level in relation to the dog for sale.

Personally, paperwork means nothing whatsoever to me. If the dog is sound, and I'm not lining someone's pocket who's causing suffering through my ignorance, I'm happy.

If you specifically want a farm pup...

I really just want a dog that hasn't been bred for appearance, or aspects other than just being healthy. I've had dealings with "pedigree" breeders on a cat side of things, helping and rehoming Siamese cats for close friends. If the dog breeding circuit is anything like as incestuous and opaque, I'll take a brick painted black and white before I'll take a "pedigree".

Having said all that I don’t know how many individuals who are intent to breed for work ability would be willing to sell a pup to a first-time pet dog owner.

Well aware- I'm keeping an eye out for folks who're breeding for their own farms and have "spare pups" for pet owners or good homes. I'm not planning to set the world on fire, just have good fun with a dog with nouse.

Regarding the cats, two out of three are unshakeable. We had a blind staffie spend the night here, on her way to a foster home, and after scouting around a bit, they carried on like nothing had happened. The third has lived with terriers before being rescued, but it has years. She was disgruntled but not aggressive towards any animals brought into the house, but it's her "approval" I need for peace of mind. She has several retreats, favourite dens and spaces that we fitted out.

The rescues I've been considering contacting (and I realise they'd need to find me suitable too!)

Border Collie Trust GB

http://www.bordercollietrustgb.org.uk - they have a rating system for how experienced they'd prefer an owner to be. They also seem to dig deep into problem areas and the character of the dog.

The Border Collie Spot

http://www.thebordercolliespot.com - again I suspect a close interest in matching the dog to the right person, and support on the ground.

A breeder I've been considering: https://www.facebook.com/ashfordcolliedogs - being new, I can't really tell from their website what their breeding motivation is, but in many adverts they seem to be quite honest. Unless I'm confusing them with another person (I may well be).

[Maxi]

You really seem to be researching and considering your options.

 

Unfortunately ISDS registration does not guarantee animal welfare and it probably does not rule out puppy mills either. Earlier this year I saw an ad in the Farmer's Guardian wanting a registered female with papers.. no other criteria were required. My interpretation is this person just wanted a breeding female.

 

With regard to the breeder you are considering whose link you post near the end.I don,t know them, - that doesn't mean anything because I don' have that much to do with the dog world. BUT Things I would look out for and note are - coloured pups,. -there also seems to be quite a lot of pups Aalso I can't see a location on that facebook page (but it was only a quick glance) Finally on the posts I looked at there are no pictures of dogs working stock (though there are some sheep pictures),

 

ETA I,ve also sent you a PM with a link to a newspaper article that may be relevant. As I don't know if it is relevant to your search and is UK based, I have not posted it on the forum.

[Bogwoppit]

There's a high chance I have posted the wrong link, I was working from memory for the breeder I posted. Thank you for PMing me, I will have a more careful look as to whether it was that site. All I know is it does start with "As..."

 

The one I remembered did have some red dogs, but not many colours, and they were concerned with individually homing the pups to good people. I should have looked more closely before posting that up.

 

Edit: "Astra" Border collies: https://www.facebook.com/AstraSheepdogCentre

I know nothing about them, other than their website is impressive on a skim.

[mum24dog]

Just consider how much emphasis is placed on colour on the Astra web site. See the list of colours they have.

 

And the fb page claims proof that it is possible to breed for working ability, healthy structure and colour.

 

I found that most working breeders don't have time to maintain an up to date and impressive web site and I would advise strongly not taking what any web site says at face value. Dig deeper and check it out.

 

Some breeders may sometimes produce dogs that are not b/w or tri but you need to satisfy yourself as to their motivation.

 

If you are prepared to consider a rescue pup you could try Donna at Morgan's Rescue in Cumbria. Google for her contact number.

[Bogwoppit]

Yes, I have had a search on this forum for "Astra", I think I shall leave the rest unsaid.

 

If nothing else I will be driving to wherever I get my new pal from and we couldn't pick a more remote part of the UK.

 

I will take a look, thank you!