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Finding my dog's reward


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I seem to have the most aloof little 4 mo. old. A wonderful dog she is, and continually impressing me with her abilities. But at best she plays with a sort of awareness of me. At worst she LOVES to simply blow me off. So in regards to training, I am constantly searching for the rewards that keep her engaged and excited. Food seems to work for a period of time, but she seems to get that she's being run through "drills" and loses interest pretty quickly. Play is fun for her, but it's hard to train certain things using play (or at least it's hard for me)

 

How is everyone going about finding that reward that really engages the pup. Is aloofness a part of puppyhood? At times she seems to not really give a you-know-what about me (pardon this amateur trainer projecting his own stuff onto the pup)

 

Thoughts?

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How long are your training sessions? My first thought is they may be too long for a 4 m.o. puppy.

 

Frequent short training sessions that end before she becomes disinterested are better than longer ones that eventually bore her.

GentleLake, I actually try to keep them very short. They rarely go over about 4-5 minutes. The problem isn't so much during the "sessions" but the in between training. That is where I am having difficulty getting her to pay attention. The dog is so smart she can tell when my handful of treats is out and she knows the training session is through and goes back to whatever she wants to do.

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Have you tried wearing a treat pouch or keeping some treats in your pocket at all times so you're always ready?

 

You're not going to get a whole lot of focus at this age, so don't worry about it too much.

 

One thing you could do though is some focus exercises. Click and treat for eye contact, and then for duration, just like you would for stay.

 

Hand targeting is also helpful for teaching them to pay attention to you. They're got to pay attention to where you move your hand, so it builds attention.

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Well, call me silly, but if I am not training or actively engaging...they can be on their own. Especially with pups.

I use different treats, toys, sometimes just praise too. Running, rough housing, chasing games. Short. Often one or two reps constantly changing from the different rewards, spread out during the whole day.

 

I spend some time finding new things like chicken hearts, gizzards, string cheese that make them really perk up. Those are kept only for really new things or really rather difficult tasks.

 

Edited to add, begging for interaction already sets you on the wrong path. I also learned a while back the concept of the dog not being in charge of deciding, I want to only play or only use food. The concept of giving them a choice which will result in a reward of my choice. It took my new girl a few tempertantrums before she decided that she might as well work for food as a toy was a much higher natural reward for her. Now she still prefers her toy but will take the food if she "has" to!

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Well, call me silly, but if I am not training or actively engaging...they can be on their own. Especially with pups.

I use different treats, toys, sometimes just praise too. Running, rough housing, chasing games. Short. Often one or two reps constantly changing from the different rewards, spread out during the whole day.

 

I spend some time finding new things like chicken hearts, gizzards, string cheese that make them really perk up. Those are kept only for really new things or really rather difficult tasks.

 

Edited to add, begging for interaction already sets you on the wrong path. I also learned a while back the concept of the dog not being in charge of deciding, I want to only play or only use food. The concept of giving them a choice which will result in a reward of my choice. It took my new girl a few tempertantrums before she decided that she might as well work for food as a toy was a much higher natural reward for her. Now she still prefers her toy but will take the food if she "has" to!

 

 

All of the above.

 

At this age, I don't ask too much of my pup's attention if I'm not actively engaging him/her. Border collies are bred to be independent thinkers. Yes, they are smart and biddable and all that, but why should I expect to be the center of his or her universe? At 4 months they are becoming aware of themselves and their world, and their focus and attention span can easily be all over the map.

 

There's a whole WORLD of Interesting Things out there and humans who continually ask for their attention are just not very interesting.

 

Be patient. Admire your dog's self-reliance. Respect his autonomy. And command his attention only when you intend to engage him for some purpose.

 

I'm all for keeping yummy treats handy, but don't over-do it. Slavish devotion may or may not be part of a border collie's makeup. My boy is right now snoozing in one of his favorite spost: next to my feet. But when he wants to go off in the bedroom and have a nap, he's welcome to go. I may not see him for two or three hours, then. Likewise my girl likes to come give me a nudge and hello, but when she wants to go off and watch the cats or chew a bone, she can have at it.

 

Let him come along at his own speed. You're competing with an entire planet full of new and interesting things, and dealing with a very clever mind that takes EVERYTHING in. You'll get there. Just be patient and don't meanwhile start feeling like your puppy doesn't love you. That's not it, at all. :)

 

~ Gloria

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I recommend being as much fun as possible when training and trying to always end a training or play session with your pup wanting more. Quinn was extremely busy and very independent at 4 months old and I wasn't important to him most of the time. Everything I trained him - manners, obedience, agility foundation, tricks - was fun and games. He has always more excited by toys than food so I used both toys and treats depending on what I was training.

 

In between sessions, try to never give a command if you aren't sure she will listen. Don't let her practicing deciding when she will obey. If she is not causing havoc, I would keep an eye on her as she explores, plays and has fun. If you want her to stop a behavior and don't think she will listen if you tell her to or call her to come, then go to her and intervene. Otherwise, unless I wanted to do a training session, I would let my puppy have at it.

 

As she matures, her bond with you will grow and she will become more consistently interested in being with you. It varies as far as when that happens. Quinn decided I was worth keeping when he was 6 months old, but it varies from dog to dog. The independent puppies I have known all grew into very attached, affectionate dogs. Quinn went from coyote puppy to momma's boy (eventually). Hang in there and have fun with your girl!

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I am going to point out something probably very obvious for most already and yes it is in response to Shetlanders post. But please consider it an addition.

 

In my view, training of any kind brings the opportunity for a pup to make a "mistake" ( mistake only in the trainers eyes not the pups until expectations are defined), misunderstand and therefore for dog and handler to have work on getting to know each other. This trainings process which does not happen over night even in the very best case, is what will make your pup or dog less aloof. Not less independent but more safe in your care and would like to think more confident in a solid partnership. Not sure if I am getting this across well.

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I discovered as much as Tobias loves cheese and other treats his regular dog food works best for him usually. Especially in the morning when he's really focused on eatting I ask for a trick and give him a couple of kibbles then ask for another and so on. I only ask for a couple of minutes at most but ask for at least one trick before eat meal biscuit and chewy bone I give him because it seems to be the moments that he's most motivated. Now that he knows some tricks really well to make it more fun sometimes when playing I'll ask for a trick so his reward is more play. I don't over do it though because I don't want him to think playing with me is no fun nor do I want him to think I just want to take toys away and make it a chore for him to get them back. But using toys for first learning new tricks doesnt seem motivating enough for my 9 week old. As for aloofness I give Tobias his space and sometimes it definaly feels that he loves the family Great Dane more than he likes being with me but its also kind of nice that someone else can entertain him for over an hour. I'm keeping faith that as he grows older he'll bond more with me when he realizes that I'm more than his babysitter. ;)

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I recommend being as much fun as possible when training and trying to always end a training or play session with your pup wanting more. Quinn was extremely busy and very independent at 4 months old and I wasn't important to him most of the time. Everything I trained him - manners, obedience, agility foundation, tricks - was fun and games. He has always more excited by toys than food so I used both toys and treats depending on what I was training.

 

In between sessions, try to never give a command if you aren't sure she will listen. Don't let her practicing deciding when she will obey. If she is not causing havoc, I would keep an eye on her as she explores, plays and has fun. If you want her to stop a behavior and don't think she will listen if you tell her to or call her to come, then go to her and intervene. Otherwise, unless I wanted to do a training session, I would let my puppy have at it.

 

As she matures, her bond with you will grow and she will become more consistently interested in being with you. It varies as far as when that happens. Quinn decided I was worth keeping when he was 6 months old, but it varies from dog to dog. The independent puppies I have known all grew into very attached, affectionate dogs. Quinn went from coyote puppy to momma's boy (eventually). Hang in there and have fun with your girl!

I love this! Such a good reminder. I'm so bad at keeping my self from repeating commands, or just plain blurting them out during play. Sometimes I'll just say "come!" while running around and then I'll stop and think "why did I say that? I didn't even want her to actually come to me" So while I'm out there training her, I am actually training myself…mainly to shut up.

 

I'm so glad to hear that some affection developed around 6 months. That will be very rewarding. Occasionally she comes up to me and sits and just lets me cradle her face and pet her cheeks. It's very sweet and I revel in those moments. =)

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I'm so glad to hear that some affection developed around 6 months. That will be very rewarding. Occasionally she comes up to me and sits and just lets me cradle her face and pet her cheeks. It's very sweet and I revel in those moments. =)

 

I just wanted to offer some encouragement along these lines as well. Camden was my first dog... my first puppy... and I spent the first 3-4 months with him wondering if he was defective. Puppies are supposed to be cute, friendly, loving, snuggle bugs... right... right!?!?! Not mine. Now, I was lucky enough to get an aloof puppy who was extremely food motivated so at least I had that. Training was our only bonding time, as he had zero interest in being petted or loved on. He didn't even show much interest in playing with me until he was 5 months old. I just assumed I had a dog that was never going to be overly affectionate, but I came to terms with it and anyways he'd already won me over with his "smarts" and drive.

 

Sometime between 6-7 months everything changed. There's no exact moment I can remember (truth is we were bonding the whole time) but I could suddenly feel that bond. It was (IS) tangible and unmistakable.

 

I know every dog is different (and that I am now way off the original topic) but I just wanted to share my experience of having an aloof puppy. I'm guessing you and your girl are building a wonderful foundation and that your relationship will continue to grow and blossom. You obviously care about her a great deal and want the very best for her. I believe that trust and love will have a huge pay off in the long run. :wub:

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I'm so bad at keeping my self from repeating commands, or just plain blurting them out during play. Sometimes I'll just say "come!" while running around and then I'll stop and think "why did I say that? I didn't even want her to actually come to me" So while I'm out there training her, I am actually training myself…mainly to shut up.

Just keep working on it and you'll get there! It can be hard to break habits, though. When my Sheltie became deaf, it took the longest time for me to stop talking to her. We are a chatty species. :D Eventually, I learned to just use gestures and signals when I wanted her to do something, though when I pet her, I still murmur nonsense to her.

 

I'm so glad to hear that some affection developed around 6 months. That will be very rewarding. Occasionally she comes up to me and sits and just lets me cradle her face and pet her cheeks. It's very sweet and I revel in those moments. =)

 

Remember, every dog is different. That time could come earlier or later with your girl. Quinn's change of heart was quite dramatic. I had been out of town for a few days and left him in the capable hands of the house sitter. I really think my absence made him realize he liked having me around. A couple days after I got back, he came to me and for the first time initiated a Border Collie hug. It was beyond sweet and he grew into a very affectionate boy. :wub:

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I just wanted to offer some encouragement along these lines as well. Camden was my first dog... my first puppy... and I spent the first 3-4 months with him wondering if he was defective. Puppies are supposed to be cute, friendly, loving, snuggle bugs... right... right!?!?! Not mine. Now, I was lucky enough to get an aloof puppy who was extremely food motivated so at least I had that. Training was our only bonding time, as he had zero interest in being petted or loved on. He didn't even show much interest in playing with me until he was 5 months old. I just assumed I had a dog that was never going to be overly affectionate, but I came to terms with it and anyways he'd already won me over with his "smarts" and drive.

 

Sometime between 6-7 months everything changed. There's no exact moment I can remember (truth is we were bonding the whole time) but I could suddenly feel that bond. It was (IS) tangible and unmistakable.

 

I know every dog is different (and that I am now way off the original topic) but I just wanted to share my experience of having an aloof puppy. I'm guessing you and your girl are building a wonderful foundation and that your relationship will continue to grow and blossom. You obviously care about her a great deal and want the very best for her. I believe that trust and love will have a huge pay off in the long run. :wub:

You couldn't be more ON topic. This is exactly what goes on in my head because I am still in the phase where the dog seems quite indifferent to me. It's hard to imagine how the dog will ever learn to like me. So hearing these stories gives me hope! Bear in mind, I have a ball with this dog…and then at times she makes me insane. But the process has been amazing, so if it only gets better, well, I'll be happy as a clam! Thanks for the insight!

 

 

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As my first training mentor used to say, silence is golden, duct tape is silver :-) I had (have) a dog that until she was *eighteen months* would run away when I called her. A huge part of that was because she didn't trust me at all, because I did stupid things like yell at her and roll her on her side. She was smart, she wasn't going to come anywhere near the scary human when she could go run around or play with a toy by herself. I also used words indiscriminately; I would frequently ask her to do something she was not motivated to do.

 

She also was completely disinterested in food. So I did two things: Firstly, I stopped asking her to do things, and started labelling them (i.e., I only called her when I was sure she would come, which at first was only after I had raced away from her and she was chasing me to get her toy. I said the word as she did it, then gradually started using it as a pre-emptive cue only in situations where I thought she would respond). I used the same word every time, did not repeat the cue more than once, and shut up the rest of the time. Secondly, I used whatever was motivating to her in that moment: if she wanted to go outside, then she had to look or sit or touch my hand first. If she wanted a toy, she had to offer a down or eye contact first (we worked on lots of eye contact and recalls). If she wanted her dinner, or to go in with stock, or go greet a person, or to get out of the car, or go into the agility building, she had to sucessfully perform a cue first.

 

She's still an independent dog, and she never outgrew that "what's in it for me" mentality. But she is all the more treasured a working partner for it. She never lets me become sloppy, and she trusts me now. That is the greatest reward ever, because that trust was earned.

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