Unfenced

[TEC]

Here are a few recent photos of Josie and sheep on a hillside. Some days they settle nicely to graze, slowly moving across the slope. Other times they seem nervous, and race about. I believe wind and time of day are primary factors in how they behave. I recommend to those who have the opportunity to graze sheep for several hours at a time, to make use of it. Take a light folding chair and small umbrella for sun and rain, but be ready to move with the flock. Just sitting and watching sheep and your dog(s) can be incredibly instructive.

 

This group is a mixed flock of several breeds, including Barbados. At times they break into three distinct sub-flocks. There are no fences here, only ridges and valleys that keep them somewhat contained. Josie is proving herself to be an excellent helper. She seems to know what needs to be done before I do. Her early training in fundamentals and monthly work on new skills have paid-off. I can't imagine one person, on this hill, managing these sheep, without a good dog.

 

I have found that what I call a half-outrun to be a most useful maneuver. When sheep spread too far laterally left and/or right from my position, I send Josie out to their side, stop her, and have her walk-up (a type of cross-drive) to tidy them to the center. This goes against a dog's instinct to gather. Another practical tactic is a standard outrun, lift and fetch, but rather than have the sheep brought to me, in mid-fetch I have Josie flank to their heads to stop them, and then a recall. I can have her drop the sheep almost wherever I wish.

 

Josie, down in grass

 

Sheep on hill

 

Keeping a close eye

 

Spread deep

 

Watching to the left

 

Happy dog, sheep in background

[Jumpin Boots]

Those are great photos! Thanks for sharing. I can't wait till my guy is far enough along for us to do that with our flock, dreaming

[TEC]

Thank you. Get the fundamentals on your dog, and start small, gradually increasing you and your dog's confidence. Especially at first, have a back-up plan in mind if things should get messy. There's not much that a good fetch/gather can't fix. You'll do it. -- Best wishes, TEC

[Gloria Atwater]

My dogs say they want to come take a working holiday with your dog. It looks perfect and absolutely the best for a working dog!

~ Gloria

[Smalahundur]

Nice flock, beautiful dog, great surroundings.

Gláma and I are playing the "unfenced" game all fall. Different rules though .

I have been wondering if I could do the same with my flock in the autumn, putting them out in unfenced land to graze. Often (as last year) winter comes early and makes it impossible.

[TEC]

Nice flock, beautiful dog, great surroundings.

Gláma and I are playing the "unfenced" game all fall. Different rules though .

I have been wondering if I could do the same with my flock in the autumn, putting them out in unfenced land to graze. Often (as last year) winter comes early and makes it impossible.

Thank you.

 

Yes, the protocols/rules might be different for our circumstances. As I understand your description, you can turn your sheep out for days at a time without supervision to common areas , but for me, while unfenced, there are nearby neighbors who would likely object to sheep on their property. Additionally, coyotes and dogs have been known to disturb them. So, I watch the sheep continually and closely, following along, and adjusting their position from time to time. They are returned to the corral everyday.

 

Just thinking out loud -- could you release your sheep to common areas for a few hours a day, while following/watching them, and return the flock to your paddock at night? That way you could save some feed and keep your costs down, and also not risk getting your stock caught in an early storm. -- TEC

[Smalahundur]

Yeah, that´s right, but that unsupervised period is from lambing season to slaughter time (that started today), between three and four months. And the common area is everything outside of the fenced of hey lands.

Practically there are no real predators here. Just an opportunist like the arctic fox. Some people here would tell you different, but if you ask me that animal is no match for a healthy ewe defending her lambs.

 

What you were thinking aloud is indeed what I was wondering about. But probably difficult to manage in the landscape around the farm.

[Liz P]

I often take a book and a dog to do some tending. It's great for dogs that need to learn to relax around sheep, to flank clean, stop anywhere, etc. Once the dog understands the job, you can both relax and get a lot of training dog at the same time.

 

Last fall, when hurricane Sandy was threatening the area, I had to move my goats. They were in an unprotected hill pasture. I didn't know if downed trees would injure them or ruin the fences and let them get loose. I was offered some barn space, but getting them moved required that I leave my dog in charge of them in an unfenced area for nearly 2 hours. I set the herd up in the area I wanted them held and left her to head to the barn.

 

When the barn was ready I gave her a command to gather them up and fetch them to me. However, she couldn't hear me over the howling winds. When I hiked back up to where I had left her, the herd was safe and sound, munching away right where they had been 2 hours ago. (If you know goats, you know they don't just stay put.) We got them into the barn where they stayed safe through the storm. My good dog earned her keep that day.

[TEC]

...When the barn was ready I gave her a command to gather them up and fetch them to me. However, she couldn't hear me over the howling winds. When I hiked back up to where I had left her, the herd was safe and sound, munching away right where they had been 2 hours ago. (If you know goats, you know they don't just stay put.) We got them into the barn where they stayed safe through the storm. My good dog earned her keep that day.

I understand how difficult it is for a dog to hold sheep in that manner. Your dog earned a medal that day, and happy the goats were safe in the barn for the hurricane.

 

I'm guessing there is no one method to train a dog to keep sheep in place while the handler is away, and that it involves a lot of different puzzle pieces. Interested to know if it is something that can be described.

 

I have a related issue. My little dog has two sides. I can sit in a folding chair with her at my feet, as a spread-out flock grazes it way toward us and through our position, some of them within 10 or fifteen feet as they pass. Josie and the sheep seem fine and relaxed as they go by. But on the other side of the coin, if Josie can't see the entire flock due to ridges, vegetation and such, it seems that nothing in heaven or on earth can keep her from trotting out to check the portion she can't see, and sometimes bring them to me -- regardless whether I wish that she would leave them in place. If a portion of the flock abruptly decide to check-out a green spot 100 yds away, their quick movement tends to draw her out to their heads, again often against my wishes. She is old enough to do better, so I have likely let her down in her training in some manner. The upside to her personality is that when I want stock control, I have it in an instant.

 

I can keep Josie with me in the described scenarios, but frequently the words necessary are not standard herding commands, and let's say it's good that we are up the hill and not near sensitive ears. I would like to find a less stressful method

 

Is the simple answer to use a leash until I can train more self control? She's an obedient dog, IMO, in most other contexts. If you have a moment, appreciate your thoughts and those of others. -- TEC

[Liz P]

I didn't train my dog to keep stock in one place while I left her alone. I trained her basic commands and we do some tending. I guess that, like any smart dog, when I set the herd up and told her to stay she understood that she had to do her job, whether I was there to give her commands or not.

 

I suspect with your dog it's just a matter of control. Have you tried sending her on an outrun, stopping her and having her cross drive rather than fetch? That is essentially what much of tending that I do involves, big flanks with a little bump or pressure to keep them contained within a predetermined area. You need big clean flanks and good control along with a gentle lift so that the sheep don't go flying once contact is made.

[TEC]

I didn't train my dog to keep stock in one place while I left her alone. I trained her basic commands and we do some tending. I guess that, like any smart dog, when I set the herd up and told her to stay she understood that she had to do her job, whether I was there to give her commands or not.

 

I suspect with your dog it's just a matter of control. Have you tried sending her on an outrun, stopping her and having her cross drive rather than fetch? That is essentially what much of tending that I do involves, big flanks with a little bump or pressure to keep them contained within a predetermined area. You need big clean flanks and good control along with a gentle lift so that the sheep don't go flying once contact is made.

I probably did not do a very good job describing our problem. Josie usually does a good job bumping them laterally without fetching to me. Also she can do a half-fetch, midway flanking to their heads to stop them, allowing me to recall her, and leave the sheep where placed. We do OK when I want the sheep moved/controlled.

 

Problems arise when I don't want her to do anything but stay-put next to me, and merely let the sheep drift/graze. She's a happy dog when she has most the flock in view. Where we find difficulty is simply keeping her at my side when she can't see a portion of the flock. She wants to see where they went, and sometimes in her enthusiasm she does more than take a peek -- she wants to move them against my wishes. Her that'll do and stay-type commands seem to be left at the barn in that scenario. As you can imagine, when half the flock goes over a ridge out of sight, I know the field well enough that I can leave them grazing undisturbed, and still be confident that they will come into sight again before getting too far away. But, Josie has a problem simply staying at my side in that situation until I ask her to nudge them a little.

 

Same issue if a portion begin to trot toward a new grazing area. I may be perfectly OK with them moving and want Josie to stay next to me. Sometimes she has other ideas, and wants to control them, so we have a stressful moment while I use unkind words (after trying normal tone of voice) to keep her at my feet.

 

A leash for while? Talk nicer to her? How do I communicate "That'll do", "Stay" in those scenarios?

 

Ironically, her verbal and whistle recall off sheep is excellent from almost any distance. I can't figure her out. Suggestions? -- TEC

[Liz P]

Yeah, I would put her on a leash or a long line to reinforce her down command and keep her next to me.

[Pam Wolf]

1.  

   Practically there are no real predators here. Just an opportunist like the arctic fox. Some people here would tell you different, but if you ask me that animal is no match for a healthy ewe defending her lambs.

   I thought so about foxes til last year. While I was out for the evening check, my LGD's alerted to something across the field. A ewe was busy delivering her 2nd lamb and I saw one lamb near the fence, bloody. Thinking it was covered in birth fluids, I examined it closely and it was very listless. when I brought it inside I could tell it had been attacked and dragged a bit (apparently when the LGD's went running) The teeth marks were about the size of a fox. So I'd bet the Arctic Foxes dine on young lamb often

[Smalahundur]

Oh I have no doubt they do, as I said, opportunists. But we don´t lamb outside,and the ewes and their lambs are not released before the lambs are at least a week old, most of them considerably older. This greatly reduces the chances of the foxes, but in case of a weak/sick ewe, lambs that lost their mother, sheep that lie on their back, they will not hesitate.

The thing is when you hear farmers here describe the behavior of this animal (that is the same size as a housecat) you would swear they were talking about wolves...

[TEC]

I found a couple smart phone pictures taken earlier this summer. Grass was greener then.

 

Grazing hills, uneven ground and tall vegetation this summer has had the effect of keening-up my dog. She's eight, yet outrunning like she did as a 4-5 year old. I think the same old field and small packets of sheep were getting stale for her, but having to keep a moving/fluid flock on unfenced property helped return her enthusiasm for the job. Just my personal observations.

 

 

Tending

 

Break Time

 

She simply takes charge, consequently I have to enforce frequent rest and water breaks. -- TEC

[Pam Wolf]

A friend just related the story of his dog. He had picked up a trailer full of sheep and while driving down a farm road, the cotter pin for the sleeve of the trailer hitch broke. In order to fix the hitch he had to remove the lambs from the trailer and have the dog hold them in the ditch on the side of the road while he made the repairs. It was dark and the lambs were quite spooky, but his dog, Brook, held them there next to the corn field without commands while he fixed the trailer. Then she loaded them back into the trailer for the trip home.

[Liz P]

Rowan is very proud of her older sister.