Balance work

[ejano]

Tell me about balance work - what exercises can I do? Both my dogs seem to be responding well when I move but I'd like to do more with them.

 

They both need to widen their outrun more as well. I can send them both off balance now with a verbal command (no body language) and they do a wider outrun at that point to lift the sheep. If I'm standing right beside the dog, they're more likely to go straight in.

 

We're not yet working very long distances - perhaps a hundred yards. I want to widen their outrun more. I look down at the small meadow (which is actually a pretty big field) from the end of the paddock and think - where will we end up when we are cut loose down there? I am going to put up electric fence so I don't want any crashes.

 

I am also still finding them extremely reluctant to bring the sheep back toward the barn. I don't know if it is an instinctive reaction to the strong pressure or they simply know if the sheep are back in the barnyard, they'll have to stop working. Maybe both? They know the sheep will bolt if given half a chance.

 

They'll bring the sheep to me all day long if we work from the barn out to the pasture, but the reverse isn't so easy. When I walk half way out to them, they'll fall back and let the sheep come up toward me and we wear to the gate. I've been working at taking them through the gate; then sending the dogs back to the barn to get the sheep -that is, to not always just quit when the sheep go through the first time. They're both very good around the gate - slow, steady, no pushing the sheep over top of me.

 

 

Our progress has been slow - we're at the point now where I wanted to be last year. The dogs know their flanks and we can do simple chores at home without ending up in an incredible tangle. If I want one sheep, Robin will sort that sheep out for me and hold it - Brodie is still so concerned that they stay together, but it will come. Both take a look back command. I've learned to read them better. Robin is still so incredibly focused on his work. Brodie is very light and easy. He loves to do his job, but the intensity isn't at the same level. He is - restful to work, if that is the right word. I always have to be right on top of Robin to keep him from getting too "into" the sheep and shutting me out, but with Brodie, one quiet word now and then will do.

 

ETA - I have been keeping a drag line on both dogs but oddly, I have found that Robin listens far better if he doesn't have a line on. Why would that be so?

[WildFlower]

Sounds like both of them are coming along nicely!

 

I have a suggestion for widening the outruns. Set up 3 cones (or some other marker) along one side, so away to me, and make your dog stay on the outside of all cones the entire outrun. If you can see they are going to go on the inside of one of the cones, stop a give a redirect or recall them back and try again. I set my cones up with the first one maybe about 10 feet in front of the handlers post and then out as far as I think the outrun need to be, the 2nd cone is about in line with where I would think fetch panels would be, and the last is slightly behind where the sheep are set out to make sure they are coming in behind the sheep. I leave my dog at the post and walk out as far as I need to in order to make them sucessful and then move closer to the post as they get better. I did the away to me side for entire day and then the next day I did come bye. The following weekend we did both directions. It really helped me with getting Devon to do much better outruns and it subsequently helped with his flanks a bit. (He is not a natural outrunner.)

 

I'm not sure what exactly your field looks like, but the other suggestion I had was to not just do your outruns in one direction. I have a couple of friends that I work dogs with and we play "cath" with sheep. So I'll stand at 6 o'clock and my cfriend will hold the sheep at 12 o'clock. I send my dog to fetch them, then I hold them for her. She sends her dog to fetch them and then we move. I'm at 5 o'clock and she's holding the sheep at 11 o'clock. We go all the way around the clock so the dogs have to handle various types of pressure depending where we are in the field and where the draws are, etc. I do this alone too. I just drive or wear the sheep to different places in the field and then set up an outrun. (Just think the visual is better with the two people example.)

 

I hope that those help! :)/>/>

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Wouldbe Sheepdoggers,

 

Years ago Pope Robertson trained a "pattern" outrun. He set up an outrun shaped fence and had his dogs run it. I don't "outrun" my dogs. I send them to gather, lift and bring sheep. Not quite the same thing.

 

What if - for instance - to find and bring sheep half a mile away, the sheepdog must run out almost straight to hit a gate before it widens to gather the sheep who, the minute they spot the dog will take off at a dead run for woods/shelter 90 degrees from their original location? What use is the "pear-shaped-stop-at-12 o'clock outrun then?

 

In real work and big interesting trials this sort of situation is fairly common.

 

This morning I wanted to give a shot to the ram, loose with 120 ewes on 80 acres. Fly couldn't see them and they weren't in usual spots A (east by north) or B (south) and, another flock C Fly could see were across a fenceline 500 yards and 120 degrees west of the sheep I wanted.

Fly which way I wanted her to go - East by south - and sent her come bye which started her toward A. Before she'd got too far, I redirected with an away which put her on a new course circling toward C - the sheep she could see and/or B where the ram's flock usually is. So when she was in a straight line to the correct sheep (but on the wrong side of a treeline) I downed her hard waited for her mind to clear and sent her comebye again (due east), which put her in the field where she could see her sheep and she kicked out.

 

I do not train an outrun. I train a redirect which seems to help the young dog come into his outrun and is enormously useful/obligatory for advanced work.

 

If your young dog is running too tight, fishhooking or slicing the top.

 

1. Cue the dog. Every time you send the dog whether for work or practice - whether or not the sheep are visible - march three or four paces toward the sheep with the dog on the side you intend to send him. If he whirls or won't come to the proper side, stop, return to where you started and do it right.

 

2. Set the dog up. If the sheep are a big distance (more than the dog is used to) down him farther from you, on the side you're sending him. He must be behind you - a few inches is sufficient.

 

3. This is a joint endeavor. Don't send him until he looks to you for permission.

 

4. The instant he starts to slice in, down him. He may be very hard to down but run at him yelling. Break his focus. NEVER down him when he's right. Outrunning to sheep is the sheepdog's motor and heart. Interrupting him WHEN HE'S CORRECT will hurt that motor. If he's confused by the brand new down (he may be) back off, let him do what he's good at. Try and down him next session.

 

5. When he will take that down, when he starts to go wrong (ten feet from you or almost at the top) DOWN him. Walk to your dog keeping him where he is with repeated downs. Step between him and the sheep and bang your stick on the ground in front of him forbidding the incorrect path. Now resend - pleasant neutral voice - on a wider version of his original flank. If he's right this time, let him bring the sheep to you without any more commands (it's okay if he's a little sloppy). If you've won, put him away and let him think about it. If not, back off, let him do what he's good at. Try again next session. Eventually you'll be able to redirect several times on a single outrun.

 

6. Don't drill this. You're not looking for obedience. You're teaching the dog that IF he is running out on the wrong path, you'll help him find his sheep and reward him by letting him bring them.

 

7. He will get used to being downed when he's too tight and when he is so accustomed, he will begin widening when he hears your down. That's when you start segueing into a down/flank.

 

I have a notion how to bring a young dog in who is running too wide but that's a harder flaw to fix, my notion needs a more advanced handler and I'm uneasy describing it here.

 

Donald McCaig

[Smalahundur]

 

I have a notion how to bring a young dog in who is running too wide but that's a harder flaw to fix, my notion needs a more advanced handler and I'm uneasy describing it here.

 

 

Now you made me curious.

I have a dog that usually runs pretty wide, to the point I hardly ever use the get out command. But she doesn´t do it "to a flaw", so I have no need for a special techinique to bring her in, but still curious to hear your take on it.

[ejano]

My paddock is about an acre - split into two sections, the larger being about 2/3 of the whole. It's a good practice area - flat, even ground. It looks, regrettably, like a well tended lawn. I send one dog out to bring the sheep through the gate, then tie that dog outside the fence and take the other one in to work at a few things. Then, I take a break and switch off so both dogs get a fair chance. The other one brings them back to the barn lot for me. Brodie is a bit barkey on his tie out and since I have raised the alarm about a neglected dog about a mile away, I fear the cruelty officer is going to find and fine me instead! (That problem has not yet resolved itself but I am determined - I've got the officer half convinced to confiscate it at the first snowfall. I also need to call to remind her that there are coyote and bobcat in the area and the dog is essentially defenseless.)

 

At present the sheep are off the larger section, eating hay - essentially dry lotted to give the back section a rest. I have adjoining areas I can fence off with electric fence to give them more grass next year. In the spring, they've got to get down in to the meadows and the orchard during the day to relieve my grass and to do the job for which they were hired. There's 20 acres of grass down there for them to eat.

 

I have traffic cones that I can use for this exercise. I've been using them as points on a triangle - drive here, turn there so we'll mix it up a bit.

 

It is a good idea to really think about my expectations. Though I am an enthusiastic observer, I don't ever see myself trialing either these dogs or another one. I had a small stroke last summer (post-cancer, weird things can happen) that make me slightly less able to think on my feet in new situations. If I saw my dog taking off into the next county with a packet of sheep at a trial, I might stare after them stupidly.."Interesting... I never knew that dog could run that fast..." and not take appropriate countermeasures. On home ground, I am very comfortable with working the dogs and able to react appropriately because I am in familiar territory.

 

So what I want is a good working farm dog. We need to do some groundwork to continue to reinforce who's giving the directions - Robin still ignores me at times and Brodie is an independent thinker like his mother but the idea of giving them tasks every day has great appeal.

 

We'll give some of these things a try tomorrow.

 

Thanks

[Donald McCaig]

Now you made me curious.

I have a dog that usually runs pretty wide, to the point I hardly ever use the get out command. But she doesn´t do it "to a flaw", so I have no need for a special techinique to bring her in, but still curious to hear your take on it.

[Mark Billadeau]

Fetching towards the pressure while training outruns can cause some dogs to not want to widen out; the dogs feel the pressure, do not want to loose control of the sheep, and try to hold the pressure (staying close to the fetch line) while running out.

 

Some young dogs will run as fast as possible to get to the pressure side of the sheep so they can get control of the group (shortest distance is a straight line) yielding a "key hole" outrun.

 

Try moving the fetch line relative to the pressure to see how your dogs respond. Move the pressure to 10:00 and send comeby. Move the pressure to 2:00 and send away.

[Mark Billadeau]

Now you made me curious.

I have a dog that usually runs pretty wide, to the point I hardly ever use the get out command. But she doesn´t do it "to a flaw", so I have no need for a special techinique to bring her in, but still curious to hear your take on it.

When we moved to our current farm all our dogs saw the fences as barriers; we have very old fences a mix of 3 strands of barbed wire and some very old box wire (put up during an F.D.R. work program). Our sheep quickly learned the fences were not a barrier. Our dogs then needed to learn to go through the fences to bring the sheep back onto our fields.

 

Skip forward to our next time at Donald's trial. His trial field has a gap in the tree line and fence line on the right hand outrun (the direction we had successfully sent our dogs the year before). This gap leads up onto a small road where there is no return access to the trial field from the road near the top of the field. My dogs went through this gap on their outruns because this is what had been needed at home to gather the sheep. They refused the stop and the call in commands; they knew how to get to the sheep (so they thought).

 

Dogs will eventually need to learn and accept redirects on the outruns, "call ins" and "get outs".

 

 

[ejano]

I tried to really pay attention to how the dogs were gathering the sheep today. I used the cones to give me a sense of the distance between where I thought the dog should be and where they actually were in relation to the sheep. They only go straight into the sheep when they are asked to bring them toward the pressure. They both head straight toward them push them toward the east (away from the pressure), steering them around a bit then when they think they have them under control, turn them toward me. When they are working away from the pressure they seem to naturally go wider, slipping between the sheep and the pressure (the barn) and gather them much more lightly.

 

We turned to work on a north south axis, the goal being to 1) get the dog to take a flank without signaling and 2) keep the dog from orbiting. The distance is shorter so they are more likely to go into a fence. One problem with this is that Robin likes to drive the sheep into a fence corner and say "Gotcha" so we're working on flanking as soon as we get close to the fence - sending him between the sheep and the fence to bring them back to the center of the field. It worked pretty well today - our fourth straight day of working. I did a couple of things differently, including taking the long line off Robin. He was much calmer - it must zing through the grass and set him off a bit. It's a crutch at this point. I can call him off and he's much better behaved walking off lead.

 

Today, for the first time, as we ended the lesson, Robin seemed keenly aware that he was bringing the sheep to me for a reason - to put them through the gate toward the barn and we worked together, as suggested and I was able to catch him before he circled around and chased them back from whence we'd come the first time we headed for home so we ended on a successful note. (Brodie got the easy chore - he put them out in the paddock. Next time they reverse roles.)

 

Now we have to put "take time" back in their vocabulary...

 

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