AKC agility trials

[Jerry Herzog]

Do AKC agility trials accept non-purebreed border collies. I heard something about getting them accepted by sending in a picture or such. Anyone know?

[diane allen]

Be ready to be blasted on this site for even inquiring....but here's the answer.

 

Yes, AKC will grant an Indefinite Listing Privilege (ILP) to those dogs determined to be "purebred" without any documentation. (I suppose if you have documentation from, say, ABCA they would accept that....though there's another target for flames....!) Check out their web site (I think it's www.akc.org) and see if the form to send in is there. They do base their determination, as I understand it, mostly on photographs: one straight on, and one totally side view (dog's head must be looking forward). The key thing is that the dog MUST be spayed or neutered, and you must provide proof from a vet on this point. They obviously don't want any of these "sort of" purebred perpetuating a breed.

 

NOW. There are those folks here who will tell you the evils of AKC. There certainly are many. Their purpose is to promote the purebred dog, period. Read past posts to find out why so many Border Collie people despise (OK, I'm being polite...) them.

 

And there are those who say, I believe with some validity, that by ILPing a dog with AKC (of course, you have to send in $$$ too, I think $25), you are supporting their breeding programs, which many believe spell the end of the world for the BC breed. On the other hand, there seem to be those that think the BC is doomed anyway. I can't speak to this with any solid knowledge.

 

Since both my female BCs are spayed, and we do agility, I swallowed hard and got them both ILPed. We've been to a total of three AKC agility trials in two years (and probably more like 25 other organization trials). I don't especially like the way that AKC courses are set; the rules are too different from other orgs for me to keep track; and there are usually way too many competitors for my taste. However, I must say, that I personally don't know any of the BC agility competitors that also show in conformation (I'm sure there are some....I just haven't met them!), and most of these dogs are spayed or neutered anyway.

 

So, more than the answer to your question. And much more unsaid. I'll leave that to others.

 

diane

[Gayle York]

I'm surprised more people did not post a response to this. The information given above about how to get an ILP on a dog is correct. There are tons of border collies in agility that compete in AKC, USDAA, NADAC, UKC,and there are probably more venues that I am not even familiar with. I had no idea whatsoever that "AKC" was a bad thing among certain Border Collie people until I got on these boards. I know probably hundreds of people who own the breed who show in agility, conformation, obedience, flyball, tracking, freestyle, herding, etc. I guess those are all AKC venues, so maybe that's why I never heard about any negativity. The only other time I have heard about AKC bashing was by certain JRT owners when the Jack Russell Terrier became recognized/accepted by AKC and some of the Schutzhund people don't take AKC seriously either. The herding folks on these boards are the most outspoken about it, and from what I can gather, it is because they don't want the dog being judged at all for what it "looks like" and they don't want to see the herding lines destroyed and think that is what will eventually happen. I would love to hear the thoughts of some of the others out there on this subject. Always trying to learn......

 

Gayle

[HNR]

Gayle,

When AKC opened the books to allow for the registry of Border Collies as a recognized breed, many people saw a way to capitalize on this wonderful "herding" breed. These AKC Breeders take the Border Collie and breed for one thing, "looks" (conformation). If their dog wins (which is all they care about, surely not the dog), then they breed for "that winning look". They don't care if the dog has any herding ability, only if it can win the conformation class. From there, they are inbred (brother to sister) for "that winning look". The owner is looking for phenotypic (outside)looks only, not genotypic. Inbreeding in the hands for inexperience creates genetic monstrosities. Evenually, the herding characteristic is bred out and all that is left is a pretty dog (some are pretty stupid dogs--but that's all they care about; show, win...period). Like the Australian Kelpie. AKC show people have bred this herding dog so much for conformation, they have actually created another Kelpie (called Bench Kelpies by the herding world). This is usually a solid color of red (mostly) or black. The solid red colored Kelpie was not recognized by the Working Council as a (herding) Kelpie for a long time because it had no herding ability. Thank goodness Leslie and Bill Means have been successful (so far) in keeping the Australian Kelpie out of the hands of the "evil empire" (thank Bill G for that title).

 

That's why, dear girl, the herding world cringes at the mention of AKC---and Border Collie in the same sentence.

 

As far as I am concerned, AKC was created by the snobs of the dog world many years ago as a social status and not for the enhancement of the breed.

[Gayle York]

Thanks for the great post. I do understand what you are saying and this has happened to other breeds as well. Look at those fat little things they call Labrador Retrievers in the conformation ring and you'll get ill. ALL of the people who I know with AKC registered Border Collies, and that would be no less than 200, do NOT show in conformation however, and feel the same way you do. They don't want to see the breed ruined either, and love the same traits you do. The majority of the ones I know show in agility, and then I know several who show in obedience, and now I am meeting some of the herding community. None of them have those conformation type of dogs that you are talking about. (the big boned, heavy coated, dumber than a rock, Aussie without a tail type dog) They want dogs that do the sports they love, and those breed ring dogs couldn't or wouldn't cut the mustard. So why do people like me, who love the same Border Collies you do, get a bad rap for showing in AKC performance events. Is it the feeling that we are promoting the evil empire the same way someone would when they buy a puppy from a pet store? Of the few people I have met in the herding community, the Border Collie trainers say they train on Border Collie courses and show in those venues, but will also show AKC. They say with a Border Collie trained for stock dog trials, you can "kick butt" at the AKC trials, and that you don't want to train for AKC and then try to show in the Border Collie trials. What I am saying is, they ALSO show in AKC herding, if for nothing more than a little practice.

[Hasty]

There are people out there who are breeding border collies for fly ball and agility. I have heard about the breeding down of size to get the shorter heights for the jumps in flyball but keep the speed. This can't be good for the breed to breed for that "ball crazy"ness bred down for size. Also similarly breeding down to be competitive in the smaller heights in agility. It is common knowledge that if you want to win in the upper heights you have to run a border collie.

I am not saying that agility and fly ball are bad but I don't think it is something that should be specificly bred for. I think it's a great outlet for energy and fun for the dogs and owners if it is kept in the right perspective. But like all things that are competitions sometimes the trophy/ribbon/honor are more important for the 2 legged one at the expense of the 4 legged one than just having fun.

[Gayle York]

I know that in agility events other than AKC, like USDAA for example where mixed breeds are allowed to compete, competitors are breeding Border Collies to Border Terriers to bring down the size. They call those Border-Borders. They have also bred the Border Collie to Jack Russell Terriers and are calling those Bo-Jacks. At least to show in AKC, you can't do that......

[vpwolf]

Ok, I've got my flame resistant suit on and am ready for battle! AKC, will not allow spayed/neutered dogs to do conformation neithr will they allow ILP's to do conformation (why bother? can't breed them if they are good).

You know, I've wondered for so long, why bother to have an agility, obedience part of these boards if folks get blasted for doing so anyhow? What's the point? This is like the doomed room. ie..."enter here be doomed."

Myself, I'm very involved with ABCA herding down in Kansas (long ways to drive I know). However, I've found that this is a very hard group of folks to break into and that's where I found the first willing person to take time to teach me and bear with my "newness" and so I go down there instead of doing stuff in Minnesota.

The other thing is (don't shoot me, I'm not the one) lets' say you register your bitch and dog AKC, have pups, you can sell them with a Limited Registration which means that none of the pups, puppeis if they are ever bred will be eligible for registration. It's like a spay neuter contract in a permenant way and this may only be "lifted" by the breeder of the original dog. I know all this cuz years ago before "BC's" in my life I competed AKC obedience with a german shepard I had.

Kris

[HNR]

Kris,

There are so many people out there who are unethical breeders. Just because the contract says, "Limited", doesn't mean they will never breed. There are other fly-by-night registeries that LOVE to register dogs only on a signature and MONEY.

[diane allen]

I won't argue one way or t'other....just a note that has been on other posts (maybe in the Politics section?...where it oughta be). ILPing a dog with AKC and doing agility or obedience there is, very pointedly, supporting the "evil empire." Evil--because the breeders of AKC dogs will not take into account the original purpose of the dog and will eventually cause the demise of "good" border collies (see other posts for more on this!).

 

But how can doing agility with border collies, AKC or otherwise, cause such a demise? Because one, unintentionally or otherwise, creates a market for a breed not meant for that particular job. I have two rescue border collies and we do agility. One would just as soon munch any sheep in sight, the other does not believe that they (sheep) actually exist. Yet, I do feel some guilt when folks ask, "Where did you get her?" with the intent of finding a border collie specifically to do agility.

 

Yes, folks are breeding border collies for agility - one recent post mentioned smaller frames, etc. THAT is the problem. If you end up with a herding "washout" and do agility, I don't think anyone here will flame you (at least, not badly!). But BREEDING for "sport" (agility, flyball, etc.) is the problem. Won't matter who registers them - it's that "registered" label that will appeal to some. And breeding for this ability is NOT what the breed is meant for.

 

Make sense? (My flame-thrower never has worked well, and my suit is quite charred...heh, heh!)

 

diane

[Evanea]

Some of the thoughts I am having at the moment....

 

If a Border Collie is not living as a true herding/working dog, everything else is sport or leisure. I would imagine that the chosen sport should be "fun" for the dog, challenging his mind and body. The competition/exhibition/showing aspects are for the humans, it seems to me. If this is the case, then the humans can wisely choose where they are having their sporting fun, without supporting financially an organization that supports anything other than the original and true Border Collie. Fun sports are fine, but if the AKC sponsors them, I would seek fun elsewhere.

 

It is up to all of us to advocate for the breed we love.

 

------------------

humble at heart...

[Gayle York]

I still am not understanding all this AKC bashing, really. I've read all the posts since I've joined these boards, which I realize has been very recently. I haven't gone back and read the archives, but I will when I find the time. I don't see this going on with any other breed. Do the people who show Bloodhounds in AKC conformation, tracking and obedience get this flack from people? I just don't know. Why can't a dog who is bred to do one thing, do other things too, and do them well? I would be willing to bet that MOST of the people in this country who own Border Collies, do not own livestock, and never plan to. In other words, most of the Border Collies in this country probably don't herd, even though they come from herding lines. Is that just the dogs that I come in to contact with through AKC obedience and agility and yes, conformation? Maybe there is a whole huge world of herding border collies (not AKC) out there, that I just haven't found yet. I'm not saying that what the majority does is right, it's just the majority, and it is the majority for a reason. Most people can't afford the property it takes to raise livestock and don't have the interest in it anyway. I don't see other breed clubs saying you shouldn't own, breed or show a Golden Retriever, Vizsla, Labrador, Brittany, etc., unless you plan to hunt birds, or you can't own, breed or show a terrier unless you plan to hunt and kill rats, or you shouldn't own an Alaskan Malamute or Siberian Husky unless you live in Alaska and plan to do sled work. I have just NEVER heard of this in ANY other breed and truly don't understand where you are coming from. Maybe it's as Bill G. says. It's the last breed to be accepted (and ruined) by AKC. I do agree that a lot of breeds have been ruined, and I hate what I see in the conformation ring. What if the majority of herding people showed their Border Collies? Wouldn't THOSE dogs have to be put up? If you can't beat em', why not infiltrate em with the dogs you think SHOULD be being bred? I am really, really trying to understand. Is it because herding is all you do with your dogs, so you don't have a perspective from another angle? I'll keep reading, and trying to "get this". Thanks for letting me vent.

 

Gayle

[Guest PrairieFire]

Hi Gayle -

 

Just a short note...many other breeds DO know their breed has been ruined for work - find yourself a REAL gundog man and ask what he thinks of the dogs registered akc, ask a coondog man where he looks for his walker...if you could talk to my grandaddy, and if you had seen what his Golden's could do in the field, and look at the fat, sloppy ones bred now...

 

And the reason you won't find a Traditional Herding person doing ANYTHING else in the dog world is simply that a dog CANNOT do anything else and herd at a true "quality" level...period, end of discussion - no matter what your akc friends tell you - simply ask them when the last time they did a 650 yard outrun, double lift and international shed was...

 

And I posted a link here a while back from a canuck who was a pro sled dog man - and simply didn't raise registered siberian huskies - because they had lost all ability to actually "sled" and had garnered so many genetic flaws...and when he imported a full sled Husky from, where else, Siberia - neither the CKC or the AKC would recognize his kennel any longer...

 

And, BTW, the akc and ckc closed the studbooks on the Siberian with only TWO kennels registered - meaning that EVERY SH can trace its lineage directly to one of two stud dogs - healthy? Not.

 

Take a look at where you might hear the information you have...

 

The people fighting the good fight are in the minority NO MATTER the breed - and they DON'T have the parliamentary "floor"....what they do have are the only good dogs left...

 

 

 

------------------

Bill Gary

Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center

River Falls, WI

715.426.9877

[Evanea]

To me, the AKC represents ruining of a breed's intelligence, because they encourage breeding of dogs for looks instead of for their special abilities that they were originally bred for. (Kind of brings to mind an image of the "Stepford Wives") In the case of the Border Collie, that special ability is herding (which includes all the special components that goes into herding). Because the AKC has had the financial resources to always offer people the things they want with their pets, it is easy for pet owners to simply take advantage of their organization.

 

If a Border Collie can not be placed on a working farm, it seems only then should a home environment be an alternative, if it is the right environment, and if the family is committed to providing a healthy existence, etc. etc.

 

This can include agility, flyball, frisbee, hiking, walking, etc... activities that will challenge the mind and body, but never truly replace the true purpose of the Border Collie breed.

 

I happen to be merely a pet owner who has had the privilege of experiencing a Border Collie as a pet, and look forward to experiencing it again. But I am last in line so to speak when it comes to owning a Border Collie, 'cause to me, they are meant to be doing what they are bred for. I am just being selfish in wanting some of that intelligence, sensitivity, sense of fun and high energy in my life.... and sharing that experience with my family.

 

In my opinion, it is not Agility or the other sports that are bad, it is financially supporting the AKC.

 

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humble at heart...

[Gayle York]

Okay Bill, I think I am "getting it" a little bit more from your last post.

 

Jack of all trades, master of none?

 

Gayle

[vpwolf]

Gayle,

The border collie was bred for it's herdability, yes, it's a great agility dog, I do not "support" AKC, but because of convienience I have use their courses. It was a good point that was made and now I realize that, that is supporting them and I will find a different out let for pure fun. Any suggestions anyone? I do herd on a regular basis with my bc's Gayle so let me see if I can explain all the fuss a little clearer.

Remember the German Shepard dog 10 years back, think of it today. It used to be a noble, intelligent, big, thick dog. Now it's a scrawney, flighty, unpredictable, thing. AKC has litterally left nothing but the skeletol remains of what once was.

We don't "clone" our dogs like Labrador's, we appreciate their individuality, intelligence and variety. When I breed my dogs, for one they are sold pre-birth, and they are bred to work! Not for agility, I try and create a pup that is twice what it's parents were, I like to see them "come out chasin the ducks". And your right not everyone has the money to have a farm, sheep and the such, neither does anyone have the desire, but do you see these same folks adopting barn cats and excusing it? Barn cats were meant for one reason, the barn and it's maintainance, the bc for the stock and it's care (herding).

I run a rescue in Minnesota, you have no idea all the dogs that come through here. Alot of bc's are "thrown away" because they go "nuerotic" and their owners cannot take care of them properly, mentally. So the dog acts out like a child. The rescue I have right now is being treated for "burns on his tounge" the last one was so antisocial that it took us 6 months to resocialize it and adopt it out. I could go on and on, but I think you get the idea. Bc's like barn cats belong somewhere, with thier shepards who know how to care for their special needs. We bred them to have those "special needs".

[Guest PrairieFire]

Alright, I'm gonna completely ignore the "Border Collies are in rescue because of herding instinct" thing - I think that is simply a handy excuse for people who have no idea how to live with a dog...and can elicit sympathy when they blame the dog rather than take the responsibility on themselves...

 

Gayle -

 

While discussing this, I thought I would add some thoughts on akc "herding" - which it is NOT...

 

I see a major problem here, with akc "herding trainers" doing mainly obedience style work for ALL breeds - and while this may be required for the family GSD, it totally destroys a Border Collie...and lets people think that there is really very little difference between an aussie, a rottweiller, a tervuren and a Border Collie...except the Border Collie gets the bad rap that since they were bred for herding, they MUST be difficult to handle in the home and be high strung...so let's breed good "companion" dogs that are good at agility, flyball, AND akc-style "obedience herding"...and further destroy the breed.

 

We won't even talk about spectators at such events thinking they are watching "real" herding and wondering why in the heck they would ever need a dog to do that...when most small flock owners need a good dog more than just about ANYTHING else...they just don't know what one is...

 

Statistically, there are over 7,000 flocks in the US with less than 60 head of sheep - that's quite a lot, really, and most of those people are part-timers - wasting their time hollering, "sheepie, sheepie" and waving a feed bucket...

 

"Herding" is reduced to the level of a "dog sport" rather than the creation and development of a shepherd's tool.

 

So, not only is the akc doing the breed a horrible disservice, it is actually destroying the REAL market for these dogs - furthering the destruction of the breed...

 

Making any sense?

 

------------------

Bill Gary

Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center

River Falls, WI

715.426.9877

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by PrairieFire (edited 12-27-2000).]

[Gayle York]

Bill:

 

I am totally convinced as far as the AKC so called "herding" goes, and I have never even seen a herding trial, AKC or otherwise. I hope to soon. I have the dates for what they call The Triple Crown down here in Florida and plan to go watch those. Even I could tell from the few times I went to an AKC "herding" trainer, that she was doing with my dog the same thing she was doing with 3 Rottweilers, several Shelties, a Bouvier, and a Belgian Malinois. None of those dogs seemed to be "herding" to me. They really weren't even paying attention to the sheep from what I could tell, but were mindlessly following verbal commands and being guided by the use of a stick.

 

I'm now gonna go back and read you last post yet AGAIN and try to understand the other part better. I'm still not there yet.

 

Gayle

[diane allen]

This may have been mentioned on another post, but....I just found a new page on this web site. At the very top of the bordercollie.org site, there's a new flag for "Living with Border Collies." In it, is a great summary of the AKC controversy. Also, some really GREAT info for those contemplating getting a Border Collie for a pet and/or for dog sports. EVERYONE asking those same questions over and over should read it! Thanks to the poster(s).

 

diane