Driving border collie

[Smalahundur]

I have this bc, Táta, now about one and a half year old. Our training road has been somewhat of a struggle , especially because of a profound lack of dogged sheep to start on (working on that), another complication is the nature of the only sheep race available, icelanders.

 

Now the thing (well one of the things..) is that Táta doesn´t seem to want to head sheep at the moment, she breaks of the flank long before she reaches the heads (mostly doesn´t even reach "nine o´clock").

This problem gets aggrevated by the fact that the only work at this time is the driving of sheep of the hey pastures, and these are pretty large amounts of sheep, "loosely organized".

She is willing to go to the rear of the groups, driving them away from us, but if I need to let her head them (f.i. when a group takes a wrong direction) I can´t get her to do this.

 

She is not of stellar breeding (yeah, I know, I know...) and I am wondering a bit, what is the root of the problem. Genes, just not enough instinct to head? A trainer with a lot more experience than I saw her and was not impressed (to say the least).

 

Or, and I am leaning to this one, insecurity, she is a dog with not a lot of self confidence/courage, in the hands of a newbie. It is not unlikely she got it in her head heading is not allowed. Reason I am suspecting this is the fact that last year she has been circling sheep, we even got to a bit of wearing, on a well dogged sheep group (at the moment I am waiting for this guy to start dog training again, we had a bad spring here that gave farmers some trouble).

Also I can get her to head when working along a fence, working very near to the sheep. No way I could get her to pick up sheep from a fence, not trying either, I know she is not ready for that. I do go together with her between fence and sheep, to build confidence.

 

We will hang on in there, she is still young, and I am sure there is more to this dog than we are able to accomplish right now, but I am curious to hear the thoughts of forum members.

[Tea]

I will take a stab at this, but I am not a trainer.

 

Anyway, I have Icelandics and crosses and my first question is have they gone after her? If she is not tough enough to get after them to defend herself this may be causing her problem. And she is still young. It also may be why she won't get between the fence and them. I have seen Icelandics line a dog up with a tree or a truck wheel. I mean they have some old instinct left. I like their gumption but only after they learn to respect my dogs. I have had a couple of old ewes run off loose dogs.

 

I have an old dog Cap that would never grip in front. So on icelandics when they were onery he was at a disatvantage.

 

However, Gunny my other little dog would grip if an onery sheep even looked mean at her. So the old flock of Icelandics were pretty much 'trained' by her.

 

I have talked to some really good handlers that don't like Icelandics, but gave me ideas on how to work them. I used them as additions for my breeding program as they forage./browse very well.

So it may seem hard where you are in Iceland, but you maybe need to work different sheep. Maybe you have no other breeds? Try yearlings with one or two tame old polled ewes thrown in for direction. Make sure that you help your dog.Does anyone else have an old dog that will cast around and head? And if they are tough on your dog, grip a nose?

 

I used an old dog a couple of times to help a friend's farm dog cast around and it worked pretty well but I guess I would only do it a couple of times then let the dog work on its own. Unless you plan on always working two together. Gunny and Cap I use as a team before they retired. This helped Cap alot

But my situation may be different as the trail work during winter requires a dog on either end of the flock.

 

The breeding does matter. But you still might get her figured out for farm work.

 

 

 

 

Maybe ask in the expert section this same question.

[Tea]

I will take a stab at this, but I am not a trainer.

 

Anyway, I have Icelandics and crosses and my first question is have they gone after her? If she is not tough enough to get after them to defend herself this may be causing her problem. And she is still young. It also may be why she won't get between the fence and them. I have seen Icelandics line a dog up with a tree or a truck wheel. I mean they have some old instinct left. I like their gumption but only after they learn to respect my dogs. I have had a couple of old ewes run off loose dogs.

 

I have an old dog Cap that would never grip in front. So on icelandics when they were onery he was at a disatvantage.

 

However, Gunny my other little dog would grip if an onery sheep even looked mean at her. So the old flock of Icelandics were pretty much 'trained' by her.

 

I have talked to some really good handlers that don't like Icelandics, but gave me ideas on how to work them. I used them as additions for my breeding program as they forage./browse very well.

So it may seem hard where you are in Iceland, but you maybe need to work different sheep. Maybe you have no other breeds? Try yearlings with one or two tame old polled ewes thrown in for direction. Make sure that you help your dog.Does anyone else have an old dog that will cast around and head? And if they are tough on your dog, grip a nose?

 

I used an old dog a couple of times to help a friend's farm dog cast around and it worked pretty well but I guess I would only do it a couple of times then let the dog work on its own. Unless you plan on always working two together. Gunny and Cap I use as a team before they retired. This helped Cap alot

But my situation may be different as the trail work during winter requires a dog on either end of the flock.

 

The breeding does matter. But you still might get her figured out for farm work.

 

 

 

 

Maybe ask in the expert section this same question.

[Tea]

I will take a stab at this, but I am not a trainer.

 

Anyway, I have Icelandics and crosses and my first question is have they gone after her? If she is not tough enough to get after them to defend herself this may be causing her problem. And she is still young. It also may be why she won't get between the fence and them. I have seen Icelandics line a dog up with a tree or a truck wheel. I mean they have some old instinct left. I like their gumption but only after they learn to respect my dogs. I have had a couple of old ewes run off loose dogs.

 

I have an old dog Cap that would never grip in front. So on icelandics when they were onery he was at a disatvantage.

 

However, Gunny my other little dog would grip if an onery sheep even looked mean at her. So the old flock of Icelandics were pretty much 'trained' by her.

 

I have talked to some really good handlers that don't like Icelandics, but gave me ideas on how to work them. I used them as additions for my breeding program as they forage./browse very well.

So it may seem hard where you are in Iceland, but you maybe need to work different sheep. Maybe you have no other breeds? Try yearlings with one or two tame old polled ewes thrown in for direction. Make sure that you help your dog.Does anyone else have an old dog that will cast around and head? And if they are tough on your dog, grip a nose?

 

I used an old dog a couple of times to help a friend's farm dog cast around and it worked pretty well but I guess I would only do it a couple of times then let the dog work on its own. Unless you plan on always working two together. Gunny and Cap I use as a team before they retired. This helped Cap alot

But my situation may be different as the trail work during winter requires a dog on either end of the flock.

 

The breeding does matter. But you still might get her figured out for farm work.

 

 

 

 

Maybe ask in the expert section this same question.

[Tea]

I will take a stab at this, but I am not a trainer.

 

Anyway, I have Icelandics and crosses and my first question is have they gone after her? If she is not tough enough to get after them to defend herself this may be causing her problem. And she is still young. It also may be why she won't get between the fence and them. I have seen Icelandics line a dog up with a tree or a truck wheel. I mean they have some old instinct left. I like their gumption but only after they learn to respect my dogs. I have had a couple of old ewes run off loose dogs.

 

I have an old dog Cap that would never grip in front. So on icelandics when they were onery he was at a disatvantage.

 

However, Gunny my other little dog would grip if an onery sheep even looked mean at her. So the old flock of Icelandics were pretty much 'trained' by her.

 

I have talked to some really good handlers that don't like Icelandics, but gave me ideas on how to work them. I used them as additions for my breeding program as they forage./browse very well.

So it may seem hard where you are in Iceland, but you maybe need to work different sheep. Maybe you have no other breeds? Try yearlings with one or two tame old polled ewes thrown in for direction. Make sure that you help your dog.Does anyone else have an old dog that will cast around and head? And if they are tough on your dog, grip a nose?

 

I used an old dog a couple of times to help a friend's farm dog cast around and it worked pretty well but I guess I would only do it a couple of times then let the dog work on its own. Unless you plan on always working two together. Gunny and Cap I use as a team before they retired. This helped Cap alot

But my situation may be different as the trail work during winter requires a dog on either end of the flock.

 

The breeding does matter. But you still might get her figured out for farm work.

 

 

 

 

Maybe ask in the expert section this same question.

[Smalahundur]

Hi Tea, thanks for your reply.

Yeah I think I am in the process of discovering why Icelandic farmers prefer gritty dogs with a good nose bite.

There simply is no other breed of sheep on the island, icelandic politics on importing animals and especially livestock and horses is very restrictive.

 

My training group at the moment consists of 4 yearlings, quick and flighty, but getting tamer, 3 older ewes and 2 wethers. I need to change that. I was contemplating taking out 2 of the older ewes and 1 wether (to self confident, ready to fight), and after your advice I am sure to do that.

By the way my yearlings are polled, also the one wether I intend to keep in the group (polled sheep are in the minority in most parts of Iceland).

 

I know in my area only one who has dogs good enough to handle my sheep, and he visited once. No trouble for his dogs, the sheep refused to move first, but after a quick nose grip on the ring leader he could work them. He might be able to help more (but hasn´t a lot of free time on his hands). He was by the way not very impressed by my dog on this visit(to say the least)...

 

At the moment I use her for farm work, but it is not very "elegant", it consists of me walking behind her and Táta driving the sheep away from us, in the direction of a gate. Goal is to remove the free range sheep (mostly from neighbours) that broke into the hey meadows (do you call that "meadow"?).

 

We both enjoy it, she is usefull, but I wonder if it could be deteriorating for her training in the long run. Also I expect a bit more from a border collie...

[Tea]

Whoa, sorry my post got outta control, why did it post so much????

 

Anyway....yeah it seems like at 15 months she might be doing more, but if she got slammed you can't blame her. I guess you got some options, You could find her a pet home. Or keep going.

 

Other folks should comment as I have no idea when most dogs are doing what when. I can only go by my own experience. And its seems I always needed the dogs early as some dogs were getting old or laid up or what have you. BUT i had two old dogs that my pups could go out with as yearlings. I would get the directions on them then they would go out with the big flock. And old Gunny watched out for them, bless her onery heart. Now Taw is doing that. Taw took longer to learn to drive. Sweep the broom drove early. But I am pretty green so it might be my fault with Taw.

 

It's hard when you are farming and you need the help now. And trained dogs are expensive.But I think the first thing is give her confindance, set it up so that she cannot fail.

But here again is you got to buy pups from the right breeders. And you need to have a mentor (s)

I guess I think having you walk with her to back her up when you drive off the strays is a good thing. It is helping you. It is going to help her be more confidant. Now will she grip at all? And grip in a clean not cheating way?That you will have to figure out at some point. Cap without Gunny would be hard pressed to move a flock of icelandics that say were hungry on a good hay field that they wanted to stay on. But with Gunny he had more confidance and was very useful. Also the sheep learned to trust old Cap that was very useful during lambing. Whereas the sheep always were a bit afraid of Gunny, and that wasn't a great thing. I had to really watch old Gunny. But Cap then became a great Lambing dog.

They are all different, like us!

 

Sweep has a bit of dash which can be a bit much. But he can move anything. Taw is much quieter but she can really move anything. Which is very useful. Each of my dogs have taught me so much.

 

It is a funny thing about the grip, Taw has a snap she does in the face of reluctant or onery stock without touching them, and she will shoulder punch a onery sheep or goat sometimes. I actually filmed this and it is on youtube, but I cannot figure out how to acess my account and I can't get it un private now? (Any ideas about that?) Cap has no grip. Sweep had to learn a grip. Gunny had way to much grip and had to be taught about when and where.

 

 

Now my pups I kept- Jake and Trout are like Sweep, but Fleece on the kid goats at 5 months old had a clean good nose grip and heel bite. Of course I am not training them right now but I had to check them out.

My dogs have to work sheep and goats and cattle, and sometimes hogs.

 

At one trial I was at the Judge was allowing a correct grip on range sheep. I thought that was great.

[Tea]

Ok I figured out the youtube thing and the Taw video is back on. Now this is Taw before I put on anything, this is Taw as she works naturally at two years old.

 

Yeah she is tight, and that makes that ewe onery. But here is the thing, I am really reluctant to widen my dogs early. This is because A dog that cannot work close and far, that understands the difference, in the big fields and narrow trails and that cannot pass in close quarters will not be useful to me. This is just my way with it so far, maybe later I'll change my tune. For me it seems that a young dog must learn to move them however they can, something I watched in a clinic with K Knox. Of course this is within reason, not taking cheap shots.

 

 

(I will try to get a video of Taw driving and gathering with the ability to widen on her. It is kinda amazing to me.)

 

The ewes with horns are Icelandics. The others are crosses. This is a small practice flock.

The brown ewe is Dillinger that has run off more than one big loose dog. She is more than willing to bash a young dog. She came to me as an adult ewe from coyote country! Notice Taw doesn't touch her just snaps in front then heels her quick and then leaves her alone. This is how this dog is. Sweep was another way, Cap yet another, and Gunny yet another.

Cap would not be able to move this ewe is she didn't want to go.

 

Markquiaki channel

 

 

The Sweep videos are fun for me to watch. One that is faded is when he was pretty dang young. He is a good dog for bringing in a field, although too fast in the video.....but he kinda corrects himself.

 

Anyway folks, I am learning and the dogs and I are having a good time. If these comments/videos can help or encourage then good.

 

 

If folks have suggestions or ideas than can help me in my work thats great too. And good luck Salmunder!

[Smalahundur]

Well, yesterday we went out to the upper meadows to remove some sheep, and she worked , uhm, not very good.

I wonder if my opinion of her (being useful) has been colored too much by wishfull thinking, and moving sheep to where they want to go is not so difficult. This time however we encountered a ewe that wasn´t very willing to move, and Táta already backs off the moment a sheep turns its attention to her...I get the (sinking) feeling she wouldn´t be able to move a mouse if it looked cross at her. Sheep immediately catch on to that...

It ended up with me doing the leg work, being cheered on by the dog, isn´t that supposed to be the other way round...?

 

You also asked about cheap shots, unfair gripping, now that she does; she will grip a sheep or lamb when it´s inappropriate ; when they are running from her.

 

At the moment she encounters the (slightest) resistance she turns off.

As the most important work around here is the rounding up of free range sheep in the fall, done from horseback, I am afraid she might just not be cut out for the job. And I hate it, because she is a sweet little dog, obedient, friendly to our children etc.

 

Finding a trusty pet home for a dog like this is sadly enough easier said than done here, and putting her to sleep only because she lacks talent or grit is too harsh for my taste.

 

To complicate things further, I was offered a dog of good breeding (yeah this time I checked that out thoroughly), she´s a year old, and hardly trained due to health circumstances of the current owner. It would mean starting at zero, but it has probably more potential than my poor Táta...

 

By the way Tea, where do I find these vids of Taw and Sweep, there don´t seem to be working links in your post.

[bcnewe2]

Just a quick note of encouragement, Dew was a soft dog and took a while to start. She was gang busters as a wee pup but then training stalled out when I had to ask her to do things. Then we moved to Colorado and I got range ewes. They went after her and all bets were off. So for a year all I did with her was let her walk down to feed with me and let her help her bro hold sheep while I put hay out. She didn't know her bro was helping her so her confidence came up a bit. but if a sheep turned on her she'd bounce off and bark (killed me to see that) but I never corrected her. Just encouraged her to get in there and do anything, even cheap shot.

Jump to her turning 4 and moving to a more open place and she started working again. We were working rough blackface suffolks. Not the easiest sheep but she was moving them.

Jump again a few months later I had one wicked momma and a new lamb. I went out with a stock stick and dew, who feared nothing from me (no fear of the.stick) I walked her up with me right at her side. Made sure that momma was facing away from us (with my stick) and encouraged her to get in There and bite. You could see her little light bulb come on and she heeled that momma. It jumped forward I whacked it on the butt at the same time and it started moving forward. That was the moment she found her lacking confidence. She has never looked back. Will take on any sheep I put her on. She won't look at cattle but I don't have cattle so no biggie. She was 5 by the time that happened and maybe you can't wait that long, most would of given up but I had a good dog(her bro) so had the privilege of waiting her out. I'm so glad i did, she is now my go to dog. Mick was/is a bull headed dog. Hard to control and really my first real dog so his training background is a bit lacking. So its wonderful to have a dog so willing to do what I ask and always willing to try and please me. She'd probably not make a good trial dog but I don't need that at the moment. I needed a dog with heart, kindness and brains enough to try anything. She's my girl.

Long story short, don't give up just yet, find a way to help her win every time you go out even if you have to make it happen yourself and she might just turn around and Suprise you.

The secret is believe in her, let her believe in you and ALWAYS set her up to win. Even if that means not using her when you need her if she might get hurt or turned on.

Good luck.

K~

[Tea]

Ok the youtube thing is

 

 

 

errrrr..... look up youtube then look up the word

 

markquiaki

 

 

My videos are there.

 

I just put up a new one of Taw- man it is hard for me to do that thing!

 

I am going to put up one of her passing

 

the big flock and stopping them on a narrow trail.

 

Kristin, you make a very good point.

 

 

 

If you do have two dogs, one tough and one soft it may well work out like Gunny and Cap.

[Smalahundur]

Thanks for your replies, it helped in my decision making.

Kristen, your story is both inspiring and sobering. Your Dew sounds like very comparable to Táta. I´ll take your points to heart, especially regarding the corrections (tone it way down, I already try that, but it is difficult to restrain oneself at certain times...), and the fact that a lot of patience is likely needed.

 

I also made the decision to take on this female dog offered to me. She had one problem; the 24. of June she escaped in heat and was very probably impregnated (enough intact males around). Talked it over with my wife,a and we reached the conclusion that immediate spaying is the best option. That means a certain elimination of pups and a sure way to prevent unwanted breeding (Icelandic farmers almost without exception don´t have their dogs fixed).

 

This will give me the possibility to go on training with a dog that has more potential, and a higher drive. And I can take it easier with Táta, and see how she develops with maturing.

 

NB. Found your vids Tea, interesting, saw Taw working , cool dog....It will take some time to go through them all(crappy connection here in the middle of nowhere)

[bcnewe2]

Hate to tell this story on here but dew was in her first heat and got in with the lgd's. One wasn't fixed yet so I had no way of knowing if anything had happened. I decided to do the shot (dont really remember what ir was) from the vet. He said it could cause problems later but it never caused her any issues and she still needs to be fixed. She Ia closely watched and as soon as emergencies stop taking all my cash she will be fixed.

Dew comes from a great line of dogs but the last couple breedings out of the momma didn't produce what the breeder was looking for. Nor me, but she is a half sister to mick. So she did have a 50 50 chance of being a hard ass. I think I'm glad she ended up what she was. Learned a ton off the different dogs.

[Tea]

A put a couple of new videos on youtube under Markquiaki

 

 

 

One is Taw stopping the flock on the trails.