Have Begun Herding - Advice Needed

[Jen C]

Hi Everyone,

 

I am recently registered to the boards but have been lurking for a while. I have learned a lot already - and am glad to have found you!!

 

I have, in the past 2 months, started my BC mix, Wesley, on sheep (we are doing this as part of a greater project - trying to help get this pushy dog with some aggressive tendencies a little more balance - on the theory that with working sheep, the dog learns that compliance and working with the handler is necessary to get to work).

 

I had no idea where to go to do this - I have no knowledge of sheep, or any livestock, I am city born and raised, and never would have begun this endeavor if not for adopting Wesley (who we weren't told was a BC mix beforehand). But - if we are going to do it - I would like to make sure he is at a good facility, with a good trainer... And having been there every week for the last couple months, I still have no idea what to think. So, I am hoping you can help.

 

We are at Sheepdog Junction (Middleboro, MA), working with Richard Seaman. We are doing private lessons and aren't at the stage yet where we know if Wesley has any ability - but he is certainly interested in the sheep - so we will keep it up as long as he likes it and it is good for him...

 

Rich is working Wesley - not me (I don't know if he ever has the owners working the dogs - all the lessons I have seen, he works the dogs). And, I would like it to stay that way (unless it is better for Wesley to have me in there with him) - I don't have any aspirations to go to trials or own sheep at any time - I am doing this purely so Wesley can do what he was born to do. If this is the purpose and it will always be a trainer (not me) working him, is he benefited by this - or is the whole point to increase cooperation between me and the dog, and it is defeated if I am not handling him?

 

One other thing - Wesley is a very hard-headed dog. At home we are strict with him (he is on NILIF). But, we do not hit him and corrections are not physical (we will occasionally use the leash to lead him away from something he is guarding or to re-direct his attention - but that is it). During lessons, Wesley will ignore Rich or grip the sheep, despite being told not to and has been, a few times, smacked over the head with the handler's hat or the stick (or whip) he carries or yanked hard (off his feet) by the rope attached to the collar. I have NO IDEA if this is normal under these circumstances... Wesley doesn't seem scarred (he is super excited to go there each week) and I do think he is particularly not biddable, he is snarky and rude and will really push to do things his own way - so he needs firm handling (I just am not a huge fan of this kind of physical interaction if there is another way - and have no idea if the way handlers handle dogs on sheep is different that the way they would handle a dog in my house - where I would NEVER let someone hit my dog)... Any thoughts???

 

Any insight would be much appreciated... Many thanks!!

[Little Bo Boop]

Just my 2 cents, but if this 'trainer' is actually hitting your dog in the head with a 'stick or whip', I'd be saying adios. There are other ways to achieve the desired results without resorting to knocking them in the head. JMHO.

 

Betty

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Welcome, welcome!

 

First, if you are uncomfortable with how your dog is being handled, you DO have the option of pursuing another outlet for Wesley's energy and need for leadership. I do have to warn you, however, that eventually you will need to work out your role as a leader with him yourself, no matter what venue you will use to shape your relationship.

 

Just having him trained will instill no magic unless you learn to handle him too. It's a good idea to have someone start him and get over the rough parts at the beginning - but you will need to get behind the wheel at some point for it to mean anything in your relationship. I commend you for your dedication (especially since you came into this without warning!) - but unless you get involved, it's sort of backward hoping that the livestock training will help adjust his attitude.

 

I agree that some kind of structured activity is a very good idea. Working livestock is kind of a trial by fire thing. "If you can make it here, you can make it anywhere" as they say about NYC. Working with an experienced trainer can teach Wesley the language of stock handling - "getting" the sheep when he's right, being informed with a correction when he's wrong. Once he's comfortable with that, you should work with him to get the benefit you are looking for. You'll know when the time comes, because he'll look like he's doing something with the sheep rather than chasing them wildly.

 

Corrections are how the dog learns what he's supposed to be doing. Unfortunately, you can't go out with a treat and lure him into the right place, because the sheep are so much more interesting than the treat! Saying "Good boy" at the right time is only a distraction that makes him say, "What? Oh, mom, you made the sheep get away!!!" A good correction communicates, "No, try again" and the handler instantly gets out of the way to allow the dog a "do over".

 

What kind of corrections a dog needs are highly individual and can even vary in the same dog from day to day. You judge by your own dog's reaction whether it's effective (not by getting what you think is the desired result, but rather by whether the dog stops and thinks in reaction to it).

 

Many times a dog needs to be worked up to a place where he's consistently responding.

 

It's easy for an inexperienced eye to see the "disasters" and it may feel like there's nothing but slips from beginning to end of the lesson. But probably your dog is learning vital lessons, which sometimes result in the grips and blowoffs you describe. Working livestock is the canine version of flying and F-14 - the dogs may be brilliant and born to do it, but they've still got to learn from the beginning. The most brilliant pilot will have a couple of near-disasters in the simulator the first time or two. But you learn what it felt like BEFORE the incident and you learn from that. Many beginner dogs make a big leap in their knowlege under a lot of pressure, and then bow off steam by running through or pulling a little wool.

 

There ARE many other ways to handle a hard headed dog, but most of them involve some kind of confrontation. The best thing you can do for Wesley is up the ante on him at home. NILIF is not enough if he still seems pushy to you. I've used the umbilical cord method on my own pushy dogs, and rescues - you just attach him to you on a leash during all your free time at home. NILIF rules still apply but he should know them all without commands. You ignore him and he should follow the rules because he knows them. any other time he is crated or kenneled. After a couple weeks you take him off leash but he is still to follow you. No commands - just a "hey!" if he doesn't follow when you go somewhere. If "Hey" doesn't work go back on the leash.

 

After about a month of this he should be putty in your hands. It should also help his response on sheep, too. Working him a LOT in obedience will help, too. The more structured activities you share with him the more he'll look to you for leadership.

 

Good luck!

[Smokjbc]

Hi,

 

I don't think a real judgement can be made without seeing what your dog is doing when he gets smacked. If he is gripping and the sheep are in danger, I would not have a problem with a trainer using a hat or light stick/whip. The key for me though would be two fold- is the correction working and the dog is learning from it? and also- does the trainer act only to correct and not to punish? I know that last one is a hard distinction to make- but if you feel the trainer is losing his temper with your dog as opposed to issuing a timely, appropriate correction then I would look elsewhere. It sounds like your dog is not bothered by the trainer- but is he learning? Does he improve? Does your trainer seem happy with his progress or frustrated? Is he getting hit or smacked with the hat every time or just when he's especially aggressive? I wouldn't call it "normal" to routinely hit dogs with a light stick/soft whip, but there are situations where I would feel it was appropriate (almost always in protection of the sheep and to startle, not to injure/hurt)

Personally, I think that you should evaluate

whether to pursue herding just because Wesley likes it. If you don't enjoy it- I would think it would be more rewarding for both of you if you found an activity that you could both do together. Don't feel obligated to do it because your dog is a border collie , they enjoy all kinds of things and especially what they can do with you.

[Jen C]

Thanks for everyone's replies!! We do work consistently on obedience and I will say, to his (and I hope our ) credit - his behavior at home, both with us and with people generally is improving... We are (aside frim his herding trainer) working consistently with a trainer at home. This trainer has a wonderful relationship with Wesley (he boards him at home, with his family and dogs when we are away and works with me and Wesley to strengthen our relationship and help me to be a strong and benevolent leader to him). And, as I said, we have come a long long way. Wes's responsiveness to me, as his primary caregiver is a work in progress, and it is something I am increasingly proud of (not having had any experience with dogs with issues - other than usual bratinness, chewiness, barking...). On the advice of our trainer, there have been periods when Wes has been leashed to me, and as an independant dog, this goes far to help him understand what his role is - when I feel there is a regression, back on the leash he goes - so I certainly appreciate that advice!

 

As far as herding goes - yes, I got involved for him, but if it is something it looks like he should pursue longer-term, I guess it would behoove me to get involved as well (it just seems so foreign to me that I guess that wasn't my initial inclination). I do believe the corrections are that - not punishment - the reaction is immediate, to stop Wesley from going after the sheep and to start to instruct on the correct way to work. Even with my novice eyes, I can see that there is less chasing and more instruction (circling one way, then the other, backing off and then walking the sheep toward the handler...). I do not believe that Wesley is afraid, and sometimes he is not even properly admonished - he is, as I said, tough, and a softer method would be highly unlikely to get through, when he is so focused on sheep (or squirrels for that matter - ha ha!).

 

Your posts are definitely helpful in that it seems that a physical intervention of this kind are probably not so far out of the realm of appropriate that I should immediately pull Wes out - I will, I think, continue to watch, gage Wesley's responses to the handler and his enthusiasm to work. If it looks like this is a long term activity, I will start to go to some trials etc. myself to see what its all about and see if I might enjoy becoming more involved. For now, we like the car rides together, he seems to enjoy his time on the sheep - and it definitely tires him out - and a tired dog, as we all know, is a good dog!

 

Thanks again - I am sure I will have many more questions and I appreciate your patience with a newbie!!

[mike 46]

Hello. Well sounds like the corrections are working.

 

I train in home obedience and am working on my first working border collie. And if you want to learn a little bit about how to correctly "correct" your dog. WAtch other dogs correct each other. It is usually not pretty and it can be pretty physical. Never forget that dogs are animals and as such live by different rules than us. They can handle pain 7 to 10 times what a human can. But stress is a different matter. As some of you can atest to im sure. ie ... cow dogs that can handle cow kicks in the face and keep working but will shrink away from a harsh glance from a human. Stress is an outstanding motivator. If you had no stress you would not pay your bills.

 

 

When im training a dog i look for exacly what u are already looking for. Does the dog look affected by the correction. does he stop the behavior that is causing him to be corrected. I would be more physical at home with him personally. Every dog is different so cant say for sure. You have some where a stern look is the same as a hard pinch collar correction to another. Of course the ones affected so harshly by stern gazes are usualy the ones held up by positive only trainers as there example of how purely positive training works. But using just positive methods to train dogs is like someone speaking greek to you. It will be very confusing to you but eventually you may pick up the meaning of a few words. Bottom line is if you watch dogs interact you'll find that dogs just dont speak greek.

[Bill Fosher]

Jen,

 

I know Rich and from what I've seen he's a good trainer. I think perhaps his people skills could use a little honing, eh? But then, that's not why you're going to him, is it?

 

Many people new to dogs seem to think that physical corrections are going to make the dog afraid, and I read this between the lines of your comments. In fact, if the dog is interested in sheep, chances are that the only way to get his attention is going to be with physical contact, at least at the beginning.

 

In fact, if the dog were interested in treats, praise, etc., while sheep were around, I would probably not be very interested in training it.

[Little Bo Boop]

This is an interesting topic. As I said in a previous post, if a trainer was 'hitting my/any dog in the head with a stick or whip, I'd be heading to another trainer.(now I don't know if he just tapped him or really thumped him,the op said 'smacked' so for arguments sake we'll go with that) And no, I'm not against correcting a dog, or getting after one but I do have a problem with hitting one in the head. A long time ago when I first got into horses, a trainer told me never hit a horse above the shoulders, that's kind of stuck with me, be it a horse, dog or husband :)It would seem to me that unless the dog is savaging the stock, why the physical correction. If the dog IS savaging the stock by all means, do anything you can to get the dog off, but by the same token, if the dog has gotten that far, then I would think that was a misjudgemnt or misread of the dog by the trainer, and perhaps he should have intervened before it got to that point. I guess I don't understand the need for physical correction, when you have other means at your disposal. A stick with a bag tied to the end and a verbal correction seems to work just fine, and on a 'city dog' used to being loved on, I would imagine it to be very effective. As for the remark that dogs ".... can handle pain 7 to 10 times what a human can" I have no idea what to make of that, or how it would even be validated....I guess all I would have to say to that was, so?

[Joe Anne]

My husband and I just read this post and we too find it very interesting.

Jen it sounds like you are describing my dog Phoenix. He too is very snarky, bossy and hard headed (hmm not to be confused with independent!).

I took him for an intro to sheepherding in May of this year. He is 1 yr/9mos old now, so he is really still a pup. He is very advanced in his basic obedience (still needs recall with distractions work), but, I feel your concern about the way herding trainers handle dogs as opposed to general strict but always positive and praise method of training.

I am a positive feedback/reward based obedience instructor. Have been using this method for many a year. I have had 1 other BC, who did perfect with this training method. HOWEVER!!! Phoenix... is a whole nother dog. He is awesome, beautiful, smart etc... but... he really wants to do it his way.

I am learning alot from these boards and our intro to sheep day. Phoenix is having stranger aggression issues (people and dogs). The herding trainer, took Phoenix's leash and walked him away from me (much to my shagrin :eek: , and concern of how he would react to this "stranger", actually taking him away from me). He too did physical and immediate corrections to Phoenix when he would bark and lunge at someone &/or their dog. He would jerk him pretty hard throwing him off balance then tell him D O W N !!!! very sternly with a hand on his back.! BAM!!! down and stay til he calmed down, then started walking again. He repeated this correction quite a few times, sometimes only going 2 or 3 steps before the correction. I must say, I was a bit taken back by the physical correction (at first), but then I saw that in exactly 4 minutes (timed by the trainer), Phoenix, was acting like a normal well behaved dog to within 2-3 feet of people and other dogs.

He did not seem at all frightened by the trainer. He actually even welcomed the trainer patting him lovingly, while in the center of a circle of dogs and strange people. So, go figure. Like Rebecca said, different methods of training and or correction for different dogs. I have since started using the same quick jerk, and stern down, when he gets "whackey", and it is definately paying off. He is getting better. We have a ways to go for sure, but we are at least going in the right direction.

We are just now getting started in herding. We have our first lesson in a couple of weeks, so we shall see.

Good luck with you and Wes, keep us posted. I will let everyone know how things progress with my Phoenix boy too.

[Jen C]

Yup - that sounds like what is going on with us... The herding instructor and I had a long talk this week and he feels pretty strongly that Wesley will be ruined without a VERY firm hand... And, judging by the way Wesley interacts with him and our regular obedience trainer - he is right. He just doesn't pull the same stuff with them.

 

It never occured to me to be physical with my dog, and it still would never occur to me to cause my dog pain - but, I do see how there is a difference between asking a dog to do something and telling the dog to do that same thing and ensuring that you give a command once - and if he doesn't comply, physically make him comply.

 

This is, in essence, what is going on during his herding lessons. Wesley will grip the sheep, the trainer will tell him to get out of it, if Wes doesn't listen, he makes him get out of it - he startles Wesley enough that Wesley is brought back to the reality that he is not, in fact, in charge of the world. And, after the lesson is over, Wesley, who is known to snap at people, should they dare pet him on the head (we are working on it and are MUCH improved) takes pets on the head with a wagging tail...

 

Wesley was better this week - he was kept out a little longer than he had been able to be kept out there before and towards the end of the lesson, even if Wesley was able to corner a sheep, he didn't grip... The trainer thinks his work on sheep will, as he continues to break through the hard head, really help with the pushinness (although I know that it is certainly not in place of all the work I myself have to keep doing with him).

 

I guess you are right - the moral of the story is that each dog is different - the trick for me will be to get all the way up to speed on Wes's kind of dog ASAP !!

 

Keep us posted on how it goes with Phoenix!!

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

From the splash page of this web site (the USBCC site):

 

People often wonder just what trainers give the sheepdog in exchange for its boundless willingness. Food treats and praise sit on the trainer's shelf, untouched, unused. The sheepdog is shown its possibilities, he learns what life is like for a good dog and is invited to walk in a rational world whose farthest boundaries are defined by grace.

 

---- Donald McCaig, Nop's Hope

 

A sheepdog is not made to do the right thing. He does it because he knows it is not wrong, because he trusts his trainer to tell him when he is wrong.