Wolf Delisted

[The Sheep Guy]

Happy Day.

 

As of today the Wolves in the Northwest states have been taken off the Endangered Species List. The wolf issue is a huge concern to those of us who depend on livestock for our livelihoods. It took an act of Congress to cut through all the environmentalist lawsuits. The wolf was suppose to be delisted long ago when they reached the targeted number of animals. We now have to see what happens with the state of Oregon's wolf plan.

 

Eric JT Harlow

www.harlowsheepco.com

[Jim Kling]

Not so fast. In fact, wolves account for very few livestock losses.

 

According to the National Agriculture Statistics Service (which provides data to USDA): In 2005, 97,000 cattles and calves were killed by coyotes, 21,900 by dogs, and a grand total of 4,400 by wolves.

 

Here's the data: http://www.peer.org/docs/doj/06_9_5_nass_report.pdf, page 1 (actually the 4th page in the document)

 

In other words, coyotes take 22 times more cattle than wolves. Dogs take 5 times as many.

 

And when wolves move into a territory, they typically reduce coyote populations.

 

Let's not let fear and prejudice get in the way of facts.

[Bullet87]

Happy Day.

 

As of today the Wolves in the Northwest states have been taken off the Endangered Species List. The wolf issue is a huge concern to those of us who depend on livestock for our livelihoods. It took an act of Congress to cut through all the environmentalist lawsuits. The wolf was suppose to be delisted long ago when they reached the targeted number of animals. We now have to see what happens with the state of Oregon's wolf plan.

 

Eric JT Harlow

www.harlowsheepco.com

 

Happy Day indeed! Buying a tag this weekend!

Not to steer the boards away from the topic at hand about herding and livestock management, but it is important that people understand that wolves do not just kill for food. They are out for fun. A rancher in our area has both cattle and sheep. During the winter he keeps the sheep right behind his house. Probably 50 feet from his backdoor, has plenty of LGD's, and yet the wolves attacked 4 nights in a week. They were on a killing spree, taking no carcasses away to eat. They even attempted to kill the LGD's. After being shot at, you better believe they were back again undeterred... Canadian gray wolves are much larger and much stronger then the native wolves were. Allowing them to take down larger prey, faster and easier. Perhaps this is why they are killing for fun. If they are anything like Border Collies, they get bored and look for anything to keep them occupied, including taking down a persons livelihood...

 

If anyone is interested I found a site that is very helpful as far as hunting regulations and also has facts about wolves and livestock.

 

www.huntwolves.com

[Jim Kling]

What nonsense. There's one species that we know for sure hunts for fun. Can you guess which one it is?

 

Seriously, wolves can't waste energy on hunting for fun. They're too busy trying to survive in the face of everything that the natural world throws at them, plus human ignorance, fear, and persecution.

 

Or didn't you notice the FACT that coyotes take 22 times as many livestock as wolves? You can look it up. I even provided an easy link.

[Tea]

Lets see,

 

What fun? Perhaps another sense of fun should be developed.

My Old Pop taught me to hunt for food. I am a licensed falconer, and have no problem with hunting. I use the tecniques to release rehab birds of prey.

I also have worked with wolves for over 25 years. Both in the wild and captive.

 

Wolves kill what is easiest. What triggers a prey response. They also fit into a niche developed by nature to feed other animals. Bears, ravens eagles etc. The carcasses also feed the soil. The nutritional levels of the grass.

 

EH- you asked me about parasite control not too long ago? Guess what animal helps with parasite/disease control in large wild ruminants? You folks as producers know that parasite resistance is a leading concern of sheep producers. Better also watch for Q fever and Lepto.

 

All wolves in NA are grey wolves. They are bigger. Your LGD like mine are to warn you. Follow Janet McNally's advice she is between two wolf packs. Have a BUNCH of LGD not one. Janet has not had a loss to wolves.

 

I worked in MT on the rez for many years, and I am very familiar with the problems that wolf and grizzily can cause.

 

However- all of us must listen and learn from the other. I have also spent many years as the ONLY producer on the wolf management group in WA state.

 

I have gone and talked to farmers and ranchers where the other groups would not dare go.

 

The ranchers listened to me and I listened to them.

 

Lets hope that the delisting is because balance has been achieved, and not so people can go out and blast away for fun.

 

And folks- What defines the west? Isn't it our wild open spaces, our mountains and rivers and our big predators like the Bear and Eagle and Wolf.

 

Without them, my friends- we are England.

[Lewie'sMom]

Brava, Tea!

[The Sheep Guy]

Wolves are thieves. Don't protect them.

 

Eric

[Tea]

that is where we are different.

I believe and was taught, that all life is connected. And what we do to one affects it all.

 

And I was also taught that you cannot teach or show anyone anything by arguing. Only by example.

 

Hence our project.

 

And the Project on the rez in Browning.

Humanity does not stand in a good position to talk about stealing. Especially in North America.

 

An eagle took two of my lambs this year. His nesting mate was hatching out their brood. Was he a thief? Or was I careless that day? That cost me. But the eagle is as I am.

 

 

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EH- Why do you need so many sheep to make a decent living when a 150 years ago you could make a living with a couple of hundred.

 

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Everyone sees life as they are.

[Jim Kling]

Wolves are thieves. Don't protect them.

 

Eric

 

And with that you make your prejudice clear.

 

How do you feel about coyotes, who take 22 times as many cattle as wolves? How do you feel about the fact that wolves reduce coyote populations when they move into a new territory, and thus actually reduce overall losses?

[Smalahundur]

that is where we are different.

I believe and was taught, that all life is connected. And what we do to one affects it all.

 

And I was also taught that you cannot teach or show anyone anything by arguing. Only by example.

 

Hence our project.

 

And the Project on the rez in Browning.

Humanity does not stand in a good position to talk about stealing. Especially in North America.

 

An eagle took two of my lambs this year. His nesting mate was hatching out their brood. Was he a thief? Or was I careless that day? That cost me. But the eagle is as I am.

 

 

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EH- Why do you need so many sheep to make a decent living when a 150 years ago you could make a living with a couple of hundred.

 

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Everyone sees life as they are.

Thanks Tea, nice thoughtful post.

I feel the same about the arctic fox here. He is hunted because he is looked upon as vermin.

I think it is a shame, especially while a "predator" hardly the size of a house cat has little to no chance against a healthy ewe protecting her lambs. In my opinion they only takes weakened lambs that lost their mother, or carrion. And sheep that landed terminally on their back, in which case having an animal that finishes them of can be looked upon as a blessing.

That is the reason you find the lamb/sheep bones next to their burrows.

A consequence you have to live with when you keep your stock free range a part of the year. But try explaining that to some of my colleague farmers here...

[Bill Fosher]

I won't say that wolves kill for fun, because I don't know what constitutes fun for an alien mind. But surplus killing is well documented in wolves, as well as in Eastern coyotes domesticated dogs, so the old saw about humans being the only animal that kills more than it can eat is a myth. A few years back there was a young male gray wolf killed less than 50 miles from here who had killed 32 lambs in two nights. He ate a couple and left the rest.

 

I suspect that this was a released captive wolf -- there are some radical environmentalists who have proposed the idea of "seeding" gray wolves in New England in areas where they have been extirpated as a way of getting them back on the radar here. It's totally illegal, and I have no proof that this is what happened, but no gray wolves have been sighted in that area since. He was several hundred miles from the nearest known natural population, and there were no wolf incidents in the areas between the Quebec/Maine population's territory and western Massachusetts.

 

I don't know that biology of the gray wolf, but I know that hunting Eastern coyotes only increases their numbers. When the population is under pressure, more pairs breed and each bitch produces a larger litter. Take two out of a group of eight, and they will be replaced with six or eight pups the next spring, at least four or five of which will grow to adulthood. So the macho cowboys of the West who think they can control wolf depredation by showing them who's boss may very well be cutting their own throats. Just something to think about before you load up the high-powered rifle.

[Tea]

Wolves kill what is easiest and what triggers a prey response. They fill a niche in nature to leave surplus to feed other creatures.

 

Yes domestic livestock triggers a big prey response. Yes they will kill more than they can eat- sometimes.

This does not make them evil. They are fitted to a place in the natural world that fulfills a role.

 

It does create grave problems to farmers and ranchers, especially when human population and civilization is close or in where wolves live. But it must be handled in balance. And with common sense. And to be honest I have not always agreed with reintroduction. Sometimes the wolves are already there. And sometimes it is best to let populations grow very slowly.

 

I have never said or taught that a farmer or rancher cannot protect his stock. I saw with my own eyes on the rez what happens when an animal like a grizzily which is on the endangered species list kills your calves then breaks down your front door.

 

Predators are an important vital part of keeping wild ruminants healthy. And folks- disease and parasites are a problem, IMHO, that is getting worse.

 

My Island is a prime example. We killed off ALL big predators here. The deer population got very sick and guess what? The livestock and domestic pets and other wildlife got these same problems.

 

As the predators came back- deer that were sick were taken first. The carcasses devoured and taken off the ground where other animals could get them. They were digested and cleaned so to speak.

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And it is always better to have an alpha pair be taught and know your stock is not to be touched. Than kill them every year and have new young wolves come in. Because it is these young wolves will go after your stock because it is easier than killing elk.

[ItsADogsLyfe]

Wolves are thieves. Don't protect them.

 

 

don't protect them? It is man whose population pushed them back out of their natural habitat and forced them to have to look to our livestock for food as we took away their natural hunting grounds. Then we killed them off to the point that now they have to be artifically "reintroduced" back into the wild. It is man that are the thieves, not wolves. Man has never understood how to live as one in nature. Nature has a balance and all on this planet need to learn to live within that balance or Mother Nature will balance it for us.

[WildFlower]

Tea, I would like to also commend you on your well thought out responses and balanced point of view. Thank you for posting in response to this thread given your experience with both sides of the issue here.

 

I do not own livestock yet but hope to one day and appreciate your thoughts as they are more in line with mine.

[brndlbc]

Here is an interesting read concerning Idaho.

 

http://rliv.com/pic/Collinge%20Paper.pdf

[geonni banner]

Well said, Tea.

 

While I sympathize with ranchers who have lost livestock to wild predators, it seems to me that if we want healthy and balanced ecosystems we have to accept that there will be some losses of livestock to predators.

 

While this does not ease the anger and anguish of seeing your livestock carried off by bears or eaten by wolves, it is a fact of life that people able to take the long view, to see the big picture, will accept.

 

What percentage of livestock herds/flocks are taken by predators? The numbers that I have seen suggest that number is relatively small.

 

And there are ways to minimize this percentage even more - LGDs come to mind.

 

Isn't it true that ranchers are reimbursed for livestock killed by wolves and other predators?

 

There are all sorts of misconceptions about why a single predatory animal will kill more than it can consume. Foxes were once thought to be wanton killers that gloried in the spilling of blood. It turns out that they are simply opportunistic hunters. If the fox who kills an entire coopful of hens is discovered at its work it will flee, leaving behind a scene of carnage. If however, it is not discovered it will return for the carcasses of the hens and bury them one by one. Frequently this scenario occurs when a vixen is raising a hungry litter. Her job is to stay alive and feed her young, and her chances of doing this are greatly improved if she can secure a large supply of food and cache it. Normal, healthy predatory animals don't kill for fun. They kill for food.

Wolves know that dead animals tend to stay dead. If they encounter a food source that is easily dispatched they will avail themselves of it. It's money in the bank to them. They don't share our distaste for ripe meat. Unless they experience an irate rancher who shoots at them (or irate LGDs whose racket summons the irate rancher) when they are killing or eating their dinner they have no reason to avoid such easy meat. I fail to see how this qualifies as murderous killing lust or delight in slaughter.

[Tea]

Again LGD only warn you, you need to have a bunch of them in wolf country.

 

 

 

As for payment for killed livestock, where we have had problems with that is how do you give a value of a replacement heifer that would have given you a fine calf every year and also her daughters that would be producing as well? See the problem. The money is generally given for meat price.

also...

 

 

The problem we had on the rez was we couldn't identify the carcasses as wolf kill soon enough. As in the dead of winter....20 belolw and you can't find them.

 

By spring all sorts of critters have been eating off them. Did the wolf kill the cow or was it killed by some other cause and the wolf took a snack on it? By spring its bones.

 

I think the best way is pay the farmer a real living wage somehow.

 

 

People are paying a pretty penny now for grass fed, sustainible, and predator friendly. At least in my area.