Stick and shedding

[Maja]

I have been practicing shedding now on and off (mostly off ), and until recently I shed the sheep without using a crook, just a step toward the sheep a motion with my hand, the dog comes through, stop and drive away. I haven't been taking the stick to herd for a few months now. But since everybody seems to have the crook at trials I thought I should go back to using one too. So I took a very short bamboo stick and did a little bit of shedding. The problem is that while Bonnie does everything I tell her to, she is showing clear signs that she thinks she is in trouble. Anybody has any pointers on how to explain to her that the stick is for the sheep? Or should I just wait for it to go away? Bonnie is 17 months old now.

 

Maja

[juliepoudrier]

There's no rule that you have to use a crook at a trial. At least one well-known handler doesn't use one. Personally, though, I like the advantage a crook/stick gives me, say, at the pen where it extends the length of my arm, but when training at home I often don't use a crook or stick, at least not in the beginning.

 

If Bonnie is afraid of the crook and you want to be able to use it, even if only at home, then I'd suggest desensitizing her to it but using it around the house, when you take her on walks, etc. Pet/rub her with it, and so on. In other words, make it just a mundane thing that's around all the time. At the same time, don't use it to threaten or correct her while working sheep. That should help make her less fearful of a swinging crook when you're trying to shed.

 

J.

[Maja]

Julie,

 

Thank you. I thought about the pen advantage too. When Bonnie was really small she had absolutely no fear of the stick (I actually thought I'd never be able to use it as a training tool), but later I used it as a correction (waving and blocking), so she is not afraid of it as such (she does not jump away or anything), she just thinks I am not happy with her work (her body language is apologetic), and thus is in danger of mis-correcting herself. But if it's ok to shed without the stick then I will not use it, I'll just have it with me and get used to it (I find it cumbersome now because I often cup my hands to shout a command if Bonnie is far away)and get Bonnie used to it, so that it's no problem for her during penning.

 

Maja

[rac]

I agree with Julie. I carry a stick, though, all the time when I trial and most of the time when I train. I find it helps if the dog is used to it being there. The only time I use it is at the pen and once in a great while to help at the turn. I bought a dog long ago that I found was stick-shy, and he taught me to shed with the stick held in my hand that is away from the dog and sheep. I always turn to face the group that I want the dog to take, and my stick is always in the hand away from the dog. If I turn to face the the other end of the line of sheep I change the stick to the other hand. I've done this for so many years that I do it without thinking about it. And this way the dog is coming in to your hand not the stick.

 

Ray

[Maja]

Ray,

 

Thank you for your good advice.

 

Now if I would only remember to take the stick with me to the training and for chores, I would be all set .

 

Maja

[Pearse]

I had the good fortune to clerk for one of the world's top handlers this year during a run by one of the top North American handlers on sheep that were difficult to shed. All through the shed the judge kept muttering "use the stick, use the stick". The handler never did get the shed and after the run I asked the judge why he thought it would have made a difference.

 

He pointed out that every time the handler leaned in to use a hand to hold up the third sheep on the split, since the sheep were not sensitive to the human, the handler was practically in the gap and the sheep folded around behind the handler before the dog came in. In his opinion, had the handler stood further back and used the crook in front of the sheep's face to hold it up, the rest of the handler's body would have inhibited the sheep from coming around the handler's back before the dog came in.

 

He also pointed out that on very light sheep who are sensitive to the pressure from the handler, one can make a more subtle block with the stick and not spook the sheep and do it from further away.

 

I too know a lot of handlers (myself included) who use the stick mostly at the pen, and their hands to split sheep but this made me take another look at it.

 

Pearse

[Shoofly]

Thanks for sharing that Pearse. Very good food for thought, for me at least.

[WildFlower]

Very interesting discussion - thanks to all who shared.

[Maja]

That is a very valuable piece of information. I think we will get over the problem, since Bonnie works ok with the stick, except as I said, has the "I'm sorry" body language. I even came up with a way to be able to carry the dog-gorne stick - I'll use a leg from my ancient telescoping tripod, so I will be able to put it in my pocket if I need both hands (it's no problem during the training) but going about the farm, I always put the stick somewhere and then forget it and then can't find it again.

 

Maja

[Carson Crazies]

I have a dog that used to be VERY stick-shy, and in his early trialing days I couldn't take a stick out on the field with me. Period. In fact, at one of our first trials the judge was leaning out of the judge's stand yelling "Where's your stick??!?!?". Though a stick would have been helpful with regards to the sheep, a stick does no good when the dog packs up and leaves.

 

Anyway. I slowly and carefully got him used to seeing the stick in my hand more - first by just walking out into the field with it, but not moving it. Initially when we'd shed I'd often put the stick in whichever hand was furthest away from my dog. I don't know if I do this still or not (haven't really paid it any attention directly). I specifically also tried to be very quiet with my stick in general.

 

Because we set sheep some I also had to get him used to seeing me move the stick around a bit to stop the sheep. It was not particularly useful to lift my stick and lose the set-out dog.

 

Anyway, to get him past some of that in a set out situation I would either call him up a tad or speak to him nicely while moving the stick. I also was careful not to look at him - to look very pointedly at the sheep.

 

He does OK now.

 

Also... to a great degree I think he just grew out of it, though I still make an effort not to swing my stick about wildly. On the flip side, nowadays if he's full of himself and I feel the need to raise the stick, he's pretty sure I don't mean it.

[Smalahundur]

On a related note, are there rules regarding maximum stick size for official trials, or is this left to "common sense"?

[Maja]

I don't want to start another new topic, so I am asking here:

 

I haven't been able to go to my trainer's for a while, because either I was not able or the trainer was unavailable. Bu in the meantime I have been practicing shedding. Nobody has ever showed me how to shed in real life, I only know what I watched on the instructional DVD by Derek Scrimgeour and various shedding on youtube. So this is a request for some feedback - I don't want to wade deep into some serious mistake.

 

Some information: Bonnie is 17 months old. The sheep are heavy. If the sheep were flighty Bonnie would stay a mile off - I know this from experience with other sheep. But at home for now we only have these sheep. Up until this video, I had never had a stick with me.

 

 

I will be grateful for your comments.

 

Maja

[Pearse]

I'll tell you the big mistake I made when I was learning to shed on a small number of sheep on my own and it has caused me problems down the road.

 

It's very tempting, when working with a small group of sheep, to complete the shed move the shed group off a small distance, and then turn the dog back to regather the sheep you left behind, and then repeat this over and over in a training session. If the dog his smart, he/she begins to anticipate the turn back and just tries to hold the group together and you end up with a dog who doesn't want to come in on the shed because it KNOWS you are going to send it to gather up the rest of the sheep.

 

So, what I do now, is shed off the first group of sheep, take them away, put them in a pen or back in the barn, go back out and work the other sheep and eventually put them back with the group. This way, the dog learns that there is a purpose to shedding. It is to split off some sheep and take them somewhere away from the rest. There's no confusion.

 

You may only be able to practice a couple of sheds in a session this way, so it takes longer to teach the shed, but it's less confusing to the dog and in the long run teaches a "better", more committed shed.

 

Pearse

[Pearse]

On a related note, are there rules regarding maximum stick size for official trials, or is this left to "common sense"?

 

There are no rules. The rules say that you can't take "training aids" on to the trial field. So rakes, paddles, rattle bags on sticks, etc. would not be permitted.

 

Common sense, and physics, prevail. I doubt many people could make much use of a ten foot stick. Rigid enough to stick straight out, it would be too heavy to hold up. Light enough that you could hold it at the end, it would flex too much and be more of a hindrance than a help.

 

A four foot crook held at arms length gives you six to eight feet of reach (depending on your arm's length), and at the pen, you have your other arm's length plus six feet of rope which is close to sixteen feet of reach.

 

Pearse

[juliepoudrier]

This way, the dog learns that there is a purpose to shedding. It is to split off some sheep and take them somewhere away from the rest. There's no confusion.

This is generally my strategy too. I think dogs learn better if there's an obvious purpose to what they're doing.

 

J.

[Maja]

Julie and Pearse,

 

Thank you for the input. I don't know how successful I have been, but this is the very thing I have been trying to do for everyting: make Bonnie see the purpose. E.g. when I was teaching her to drive, I was trying to get her to move the sheep in a certain direction, not just to get her to move in a certain direction, the same with going through gates, and putting sheep in. So your suggestion sounds great. I have felt that the gather afterwards is not all that wonderful, but had no idea what else to do.

 

We have about 200-300 yrds to go to the area where we train, so going back to the pen would not be so good. But I can drive the sheep out of the training area, close the gate, then work on those left behind and then put them together. This I assume will not conflict with the way the shed is done in class II in Poland (so we have waaays to go before we compete in this class)?

"SHEDDING (class 2) 10 points

The shedding ring has a diameter of about 35 meters in class 2, two unmarked sheep must be shed off from the rest of the flock. The ideal "Shed" occurs when the dog comes towards the handler when commanded by him, splits his sheep and drives the two unmarked sheep away from the rest. The "Shed" is complete when the dog has brought the sheep under control. On completion of the "Shed" the handler should bring his sheep together in the ring, in a correct manner. The handler cannot proceed to the pen if he did not shed to the judges approval.?

 

 

I also try not to do the shedding often and not every training session. In this session in the video, I did an unusually large number of sheds. If the shed is very good (in my opinion), I just do it once, of not then 3-4 sheds, and not every session as I said. Is this a good proportion? And I try to make it a 'real' shed. That is, I decide ahead of the shed which sheep I will shed, so that I don't do whatever is convenient (I do have to mark the sheep better though, because it's hard to remember which two of the white pudgies I selected )

 

Maja

[Maja]

P.S. I just read that in class II the shedding is of two unmarked sheep and the flock consists of five unmarked sheep . The sheep are marked in class III. But the weirdest thing is the "shed" in class I:

"SHEDDING (class 1)

The shedding will have the form of a funnel, giving enough space for the sheep and the dog to manoeuvre inside. In case the sheep are inside, the handler has the choice to close the gates or not. One point will be deducted for closing a gate. Two points for closing the two gates. In case the sheep are inside, the handler is authorized to move the sheep towards the narrow passage with his hands or his crook. All the sheep have to go through the funnel. The work ends when all the sheep are gathered outside the funnel and the handler has closed the exit gate and opened the other two gates if he had closed them."

 

I haven't' a clue what one is actually supposed to do there. But, I don't have to worry about it now. We haven't passed the qualifying exam yet .

 

 

Maja

[juliepoudrier]

I think I need a diagram of the set up for class 1 shedding. It sounds more like a gate sorting exercise. Also, what order are the classes? That is, is Class 1 the entry level and Class 3 the highest level, or vice versa?

 

J.

[Maja]

The dog has to first pass the trial entry test (HWT-CS) and then goes on to

 

Class 1

then Class 2

and then Class 3 (the highest)

 

Moving from one class to another happens if the dog gets more than 70% of the points. If a dog gets more than 70% once or twice, they may move up. If the dog gets more than 70% three times they have to move up.

 

Bonnie has not taken any tests yet, but I am planning to start early, whether she is quite ready or not to get her used to the conditions early on. But the funnel stumps me conceptually because for the life of me I can't see any shedding going on in the shedding class 1. So we are practicing for class 2 .

 

There is a tiny drawing in the regulations, and there is a funnel there alright - just two little lines opening up sligtly in the beginning.

 

Maja

[juliepoudrier]

But where are the three gates that are also mentioned? A funnel shape isn't unheard of--like the Y chute in some venues, but the only way I can see it as shedding (well, sorting anyway) is if some of the sheep are actually separated from the others. Maybe they just called it shedding for lack of anything better to call it.

 

J.

[Maja]

But where are the three gates that are also mentioned?

Good question . I guess I will let you know the first time I actually see it happen.

 

but the only way I can see it as shedding (well, sorting anyway) is if some of the sheep are actually separated from the others. Maybe they just called it shedding for lack of anything better to call it.

I don't think there is any sorting going on either. You're probably right, this part seems basically "we don't think class one can handle shedding so you must do this thingamajig funnel-do-thingy instead"

 

Maja

[Maja]

I followed the suggestion about taking the shed sheep away altogether, and I don't know why, but it was suddenly a heck of a lot more difficult to shed. I think my brain is too small for the complexities of the whole process. But today we managed to shed two sheep, take them out of the training area, go back, work on the two left behind and then put them all together again. So in one training session we managed to make one shed. But if Bonnie caught on the idea today, it will be easier later, so I don't think one shed in a session will be a problem. It often happens that doing something once, gets across to her what the essence of the exercise is and then everything is easier later.

 

So thank you for the suggestion, I think the fact that it made shedding more difficult was a plus, means I was "cheating" somewhere. My brilliant idea to use the telescoping stick didn't work - my LGD casually leaned on it and that was the end of it .

 

maja

[Pearse]

I followed the suggestion about taking the shed sheep away altogether, and I don't know why, but it was suddenly a heck of a lot more difficult to shed. I think my brain is too small for the complexities of the whole process. But today we managed to shed two sheep, take them out of the training area, go back, work on the two left behind and then put them all together again. So in one training session we managed to make one shed. But if Bonnie caught on the idea today, it will be easier later, so I don't think one shed in a session will be a problem. It often happens that doing something once, gets across to her what the essence of the exercise is and then everything is easier later.

 

So thank you for the suggestion, I think the fact that it made shedding more difficult was a plus, means I was "cheating" somewhere. My brilliant idea to use the telescoping stick didn't work - my LGD casually leaned on it and that was the end of it .

 

maja

 

 

It will be tough if you only have access to four sheep, but you need not limit yourself to one shed per session. For example, take the two off (or a single as you get better) and put it in the other pen or the barn. Then go back and pick up the other two sheep. Put them in the barn. Take all four back out again. Practice some outruns, or flanks, or driving or whatever. Then practice another shed, or two. The point is don't just shed and immediately put them all back together. Make the dog do something with the shed sheep, even if it's just to drive them to the other end of the field.

[Maja]

Thank you so much for your great advice, I will do that - we have various quarters near the home rather than going out to the pasture. And we can do a single .At least with our sheep we can.

 

 

We are waiting for more sheep, but it will be another month. In May, I will go to a new sheep farmer nearby who has about 40 sheep to see if I can work on his non-dog broke sheep. If Bonnie does well with them I think he will be happy to oblige for a small fee.

 

In 10 days, we are going to Derek Scrimgeour's seminar. I am so very much looking forward to it.

 

After the demise of my stick I ordered something like this :

 

http://allegro.pl/teleskopowa-laska-turystyczna-od-importera-kurier-i1553409409.html

 

 

Maja

[Pearse]

We are waiting for more sheep, but it will be another month. In May, I will go to a new sheep farmer nearby who has about 40 sheep to see if I can work on his non-dog broke sheep. If Bonnie does well with them I think he will be happy to oblige for a small fee.

 

Shedding with a larger group like that makes it easier on the dog. It makes more sense to them to take five off the front of a group of 20 or 40 than two away from two

 

In 10 days, we are going to Derek Scrimgeour's seminar. I am so very much looking forward to it.

 

He is a great teacher and will set you on the right road I'm sure.