killing chickens/attacking sheep and cow

[tammyinmo]

We have a three year old female border collie named Liberty. When we got her at ten weeks old, it was with the intent of training her to herd our small flock of sheep. We trained her daily to sit, stay, come, etc.... Unfortunately, when we would let her off leash, if there was any animal nearby, she would "attack" it. She has killed several of our chickens, a kitten, attacked our sheep and even our full grown dairy cow. We are figuring that she is untrainable in regards to animals. Is there any hope, or should we just give up?

[Howdyjabo]

Sounds like a good'un

 

commit to training her on stock-- or teach her to leave the animals alone completely and that will only work when under supervision-- the rest of the time she needs to be confined.

 

Theres a lesson called Hope on a rope. Get a LONG rope, wear gloves. Let her take off after the animals- just as she gets close to the end of the line - call her name. She'll hit the end of the rope and flip herself. Recall her-- if she doesn't come-- go to her and read her the riot act-- go back(don't let her follow you) and call her again.

 

Do it over and over if you have to-- till she thinks about coming-- then sweet talk her all the way in and make a big deal over her. The idea is that anywhere but with you is bad news when you call her.

 

The rope is only used to create a boundary-- not to make her come-- thats a choice she needs to make all on her own.

 

Keep her on the rope till you are pretty sure its an ingrained reaction.

[Jordi44]

There is hope, but you'll probably need a very good, experienced trainer. Jack, my first BC that I got on my own as a pup- previously I'd had a trained, adult female given to me - was similar. He was very dominant in personality, yet timid-aggressive - nasty combo. He was also super herding dog lines - more than I could handle. He was ok with cats and things, but would attack sheep - actually ripped the throat out of a ewe. I thought I tried everything, but eventually, in desperation sent him to a trainer I had met. Within 2 months he had him working for him and not attacking. I could never get him to work for me, but at least it cured him of attacking. I do know he used a muzzle on him initially - a wire type, I believe, so that he would "smack" himself without any real harm when he tried to attack. I'm sorry I can't tell you more - he was a miracle worker with him - and actually came to love working with him. I'd suggest checking out trainers, talk to them about his behaviour, and see what you can find. Good luck.

[tammyinmo]

Originally posted by KillerH:

Sounds like a good'un

Recall her-- if she doesn't come-- go to her and read her the riot act-- go back(don't let her follow you) and call her again.

What do you mean by read her the riot act? It sounds like a good thing to try.

[Mike Franklin]

This dog is 3 years old? Wow how long has he been doing this? I hope not for 3 years. Thats a lot of reward you need to reverse on that dog.

 

I am new to stock dogs but I train dogs for a living and have done a lot with other types of working dogs.

 

Every time that dog leaves you and attacks an animal he gets rewarded, unintentionally of course but rewarded non the less. She knows you have no control when there is no leash. I agree with what the expert on the other board told you. You will have to out vicious this dog. But (and on this board i expect to get some flack) I would put that dog on a pinch collar. So you have more power when trying to out "vicious" him. This way its a little less ugly. Long line as state above is good idea as well but without the flipping part. But I do want you to make this dog your own personal squeaky toy for a few seconds. Means hard pops (a hard sudden tug and release)on the leash. If he won'tattempt the attack on leash- simply try to drop your (or 20ft long line)leash. And let him do his thing and when he does you get him. Keep in mind you can step on leash to catch him. Don't give up on trying to catch him. Have family help, be on all sides ready at first. And don't not give him a correction if he stops when you come after him. He attacks animals -it will suck for him every time.

 

If you do set these secenarios up every few days,with the dog confined in between. You should see some sense creep in, but still never trust him on his own. Note of caution though depending on this dogs mental toughness he may never work for you on stock if you do this. But in my stockdog novice opinion ,I dont think he will anyway. Sounds like hes been doing this too long and hes not trying to gather just kill them. Correct me if im wrong guys, but I dont think the point is to kill these animals.

[Jennifer Glen]

He probably has been doing this too long if he's been allowed to do it for 3yrs. I would try a professional trainer before I would give up on him tho. Find Jack and Kathy Knox since you are in Missouri. There are pleanty of very good stock dogs that needed a reminder at the beginning of their training that animals are for herding, not killing. I would trust very few young untrained border collies not to kill something. They don't mean to at first. It's usually just a youngster getting rough but then when they do kill them, like Mike said, it rewards itself. That is why it is so very important not to allow them free run if they can get to the stock or chickens.

Jenny

[Northof49]

Originally posted by KillerH:

Sounds like a good'un

 

 

Theres a lesson called Hope on a rope. Get a LONG rope, wear gloves. Let her take off after the animals- just as she gets close to the end of the line - call her name. She'll hit the end of the rope and flip herself.

 

What an absolutely lovely description of how to produce a major whiplash injury in a dog and causing spinal damage.

 

I agree on putting a dog onto a line to control the dog, but allowing the dog to flip itself at the end of the rope !!!

[Howdyjabo]

Just how fast do you think the dogs going on a 20- 30 ft rope????

And you are holding the rope so it gives right much at impact not to mention 20-30 ft of rope gives right much..

If done right it needs only be impressive once and I think you are envisioning a much more impressive event than it is.

 

I think you are being just a little bit of a weenie about this one.

[ErinKate]

I am very strict with my dogs. Some things just are not allowed at my farm. If I had the original poster's problem, it would bring out hell's fire in me. HOWEVER, you do indeed have to be careful about letting one flip. It does not take much to damage a trachea. No being a weenie about it. As for how fast can one go on a 20-30' line? Pretty fast. I don't know about yours, but my bcs can go from sit to 60 in 2"! lol Just be careful.

[Northof49]

A dog that gets triggered to take off for whatever reason can be going quite fast within 20 - 30 feet. My Border Collie that is 21.5 inches and 42 pounds can go from 0 to full speed in approx. 30 feet when primed at flyball - we have tested to see how far back he needs to be. If he was on a thiry foot rope and the desire to chase down a bunny, etc was triggered as much as the flyball does, he would be hittng the end of a 30foot rope at full speed and a 20 - 25 foot rope close to full speed. They don't need to be going full speed to get a whiplash and spinal injury from being flipped at the end of a rope.

[Howdyjabo]

I have thought long and hrd questioning wether I was right.

 

Keep in mind that we were talking about BREAKING a dog of an ingrained instinct driven bad habbit-- With a woman who trined the dog to sit stay ect ect--- not stockwork or asking more of a dog than it is capable of understanding.

 

I can't say for sure that there is not a risk-- I don't think there is one.

and sometimes situations are worth taking a small risk.

 

This reminds me of in years past when

 

people had a fit becasue I was feeding raw chickens-- I had to trust myself and keep doing what I thought was right and worked.

 

or when i was using the "country" heart worm preventive. people had a fit with doom and gloom predictions. So far they haven't come to fruition.

 

So......

[Northof49]

There are much better ways at modifying behaviour than letting a dog flip itself at the end of a long line.

[juliepoudrier]

Originally posted by Northof49:

There are much better ways at modifying behaviour than letting a dog flip itself at the end of a long line.

How about some suggestions then?

 

J.

[Northof49]

In order to make suggestions, a person would need to know what kind of basic training the dog has for everyday commands and how well the dog responds to those commands, what has been done to accidently encourage the strong prey drive, and what has been done to date to modify that behaviour.

[juliepoudrier]

So are you asking the OP that or just telling me what you need to know?

 

J.

[Northof49]

Originally posted by juliepoudrier:

So are you asking the OP that or just telling me what you need to know?

 

J.

Just telling you what information needs to be provided before any kind of behaviour modification plan can be created and put into action.

[Guest carol campion]

Please look at the original heading of this topic. It is no longer the core of this thread.

 

Killing chickens/attacking sheep and cow

 

Look at the post itself ...

 

She has killed several of our chickens, a kitten, attacked our sheep and even our full grown dairy cow.

 

Long line and "riot act" pale in comparison to what this dog has done to the chicken, the kitten & the sheep & cows and to what it is capable of doing.

 

Killer H-great advise. No need to second guess yourself.

 

Northof49 later responded to Julie P << a person would need to know.....what has been done to accidently encourage the strong prey drive>>

 

Accidentally encourage the strong prey drive???

 

It is always obvious when the posters are not stock people. No value is placed on the welfare of the livestock or other animals or stock owners-just the mental & physical welfare of the dog.

 

I searched around on the site for other posts by the posters on this thread to get some idea of their backgrounds. I found this one posted on another thread by Northof49 When I was little we had a little grey kitten with a perfect white maple leaf on his tummy. My mom called him Lester B. because Lester B. Pearson was the Prime Minister of Canada at the time.

 

Just imagine that little Lester B is the dead kitten is the first post.

 

If it was a pack of wild dogs or coyotes ravaging stock would we be talking about proper behavior modification training? What is the difference here? Extreme destructive behavior requires strong measures. It is lucky for Liberty that she hasn't already had a bullet in her head and buried 6 feet under. With her behavior, someone with valuable stock that stands to lose a lot of money would be in their rights to do that. A long line and harsh correction are mild in comparison to that.

 

The owner/original poster is concerned about the stock. There have been some excellent ideas presented to him/her. All are acceptable in this situation where there is livestock killed or maimed. Or the dog can be placed.

 

Northof49, your lack of respect for welfare of the livestock and livelihood of the stockmen as evidenced by the failure to express any concern for the injury and loss of those animals is a sad commentary.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Just as an aside, Liberty still needs a ride to NC if anyone is heading this way from MO. Does anyone have any ideas or a direct contact to one of the dog transport organizations? She MUST be moved SOON - Carol is right about her being in danger of being buried.

[Northof49]

I do have sheep, and have dealt with missed placed prey drive. I have dealth with dog packs that have gone into the sheep pen and damaged the sheep. I have dealt with Border Collies when first put onto sheep only want to bite and rip (attack the stock), and some Kelpies as well.

 

What I mean by accidently encouraging the bad prey drive, is a lot of times people allow an animal to do certain behaviours that are wrong because (a) they don't do anything to prevent the behaviour and ( things that people think should fix a problem is actually making the problem worse or encouraging the behaviour.

 

It doesn't matter if it is the problem these people are facing, territorial agression, resource guarding agression, not being able to housbreak a dog, etc.

 

I never said a long line is not good, in fact I said that a long line is one of the things I would use. What I did not agree with is allowing any dog to flip itself at the end of a long line because of the high risk of injury. There are better ways of using a long line than that.

 

I have had to teach dogs to leave horses alone, leave cats alone, etc. It all comes down to management of both the dog and the "prey" and a lot of committed training on the part of the owner.

[juliepoudrier]

Thank you for a wonderful post Carol--it was exactly what I was thinking. I certainly wouldn't be taking the long way 'round if one of my dogs suddenly took to killing my chickens. That dog would find out hard and fast that such behavior is unacceptable. If there's a risk of injury to the dog, so be it. That's better than the risk of maiming and death of the livestock and other pets in my opinion. Frankly if the dog were mine, I wouldn't even consider passing it on to someone else (because even if a potential adopter doesn't have livestock, I don't see how you can protect other small animals like kittens, cats, small wildlife, etc.). If I couldn't change the behavior pronto, the dog's life would indeed be forfeit.

 

 

North of 49,

My complaint about your post is simply that you came along and made a snide comment about another poster's suggestion but then couldn't be bothered to offer any alternatives. If I had to choose between whiplash for the dog or death for my livestock and pets, including cats (and eventually the dog), I think I'd risk the whiplash.

 

J.

[Northof49]

It's pretty hard to make suggestions for something like this when you don't know the history behind it, and allowing the dog to clothesline itself once or numerous times in trying to get the dog to get the idea that this is not acceptable behaviour will lead to injury, AND there is no guarantee that it would work anyway. Look at how many dogs are tied on lines outside, and continually clothesline themselves day after day.

 

There is no doubt that this is a very major problem that cannot be allowed to continue, and has very serious consequences for the stock and the dog. I have fostered a couple of dogs in my house that wanted to do damage to my cats, and its not a happy way to live and it was a lot of work to get them through it. Because of that, both dogs were placed in homes without cats or small animals as I wasn't prepared to say that they were 100% cured and would never go after another cat, inside or outside.

[Howdyjabo]

" Look at how many dogs are tied on lines outside, and continually clothesline themselves day after day."

 

What has that got to do with anything???

 

I think you have a total misconception of what I suggested entails.

So I am not taking anything you think about this situation to heart.

 

But........ it has made me realize that maybe I shouldn't tell people over the internet how to fix killer dogs-- and I won't do it again. Not becuase you are right-- but if you can get the idea so screwed up in your head than so can others that try it and do it wrong.

 

So I change my advice-- find a new home for the dog without any kids or animals(whoo hoo another dog in rescue). Or get the to a good herding trainer and take lessons to teach the dog how to herd or have the trainer show you how to Break the dogs habbit(hope you have lots of extra time and money).

[Northof49]

All I said was that allowing dogs to clothseline themselves was a good description of how to give a dog a whiplash injury and spinal injury. It doesn't matter whether a dog is on the end of a long line - 20 - 30 feet or on a 6 foot leash. Some flyball people create these injuries by allowing their dogs to grab a long tug toy at the end of the run, when they are still running full tilt back from the box. The dogs are running full tilt, grab the end of the tug toy, are catapulted forward to the end of the robe, the rope stops them dead, and their necks are snapped back and sideways. No different than if they were on a leash/long line. A lot of these dogs are treated for whiplash/spinal injuries. I know, because a friend of mine works on such dogs.

 

My point about dogs tied up in yards and continually clothelining themselves was just to make a point that one good flip on the end of a long line doesn't necessarily teach any dog anything. If it did, dogs tied out in yard would not continually do it.

[Howdyjabo]

"My point about dogs tied up in yards and continually clothelining themselves was just to make a point that one good flip on the end of a long line doesn't necessarily teach any dog anything. If it did, dogs tied out in yard would not continually do it."

 

 

Proof you have the idea all screwed up in your head

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Sorry to interrupt again ( ) - Liberty may have a ride from the St. Louis area all the way to Altanta on Sunday. Can anyone help us get her from the Springfield area to Grey Summit Sunday?

 

By the way, Karen's method is sort and sweet and not nearly as dramatic as it sounds. If you are picturing a vertical flip (ie, the "clotheslining" reference) you have the wrong idea. The line is running on the ground and the dog tumbles head first when the line is brought up taut by the dog's momentum. The idea is to break the dog's focus, not hurt it.

 

Yes you can train a dog to mind nice and slow and easy, but this dog has gone far past the point where desensitization could be done by an amateur. She has already killed, many times over. She needs desperately to work, but she needs a skilled hand to guide her to use her obvious enthusiasim for Good and not for Evil. That's facetious of course, I know very well that what dogs is amoral.

 

So anyway, can Liberty hitch a ride with anyone between Springfield and St. Louis or therabouts? She's very well behaved overall except for that thing about killing small animals.