Pace/Take time advice? Also walking up?

[kimkathan]

Anyone have any advice on getting a fast dog to slow down and take its time? The 2yo. is coming along nicely, widening out on her away side, but when she walks up on the stock, she's real fast and right on their butts. She's a 3rd gear dog all the way, I'd like to find 2nd and eventually 1st gear. I have tried the command an then lying her down when she dosen't slow up, but this just seems to make her faster, as when she gets up, she's at full bore. She's still young, and some of it may be confidence that she thinks the stock is getting away, but we can't let this go on like this any longer.

 

Also, does anyone have advice on getting her to walk straight in? When driving she's fine, when wearing she seems to be OK most of the time but will angle off, almost walking in at a 45 degree angle trying to circle, and at the pen she dosen't want to walk in once the sheep are in the mouth of the pen, she wants to circle.

 

Thanks for all the help so far on this little dog and thanks in advance for this one.

[Bill Fosher]

Kim,

 

Take time. Not the dog -- you.

 

First off, you need to be working in a large enough area that the sheep can wander off far enough to be out of the dog's influence. Have the dog lift the sheeep, then make it lie down until the sheep stop moving. Then ask her up. The instant the sheep make a move, stop her again. When they settle, ask her up. Keep repeating this until she gets the idea that she can control her sheep from a distance. She will be very tense at first, but will relax as she realizes that she's still in control. It'll probably take weeks.

 

Directness is not something you can really train, although I suspect that as time goes by and she starts to understand what's going on at the pen she will get with the program. I expect she'll become more direct as she gains confidence and learns to control sheep from a distance, but mostly you just need to know what she's likely to do and learn to help her get the job done without imposing directness on her.

[Pipedream Farm]

I like to start out with a quiet group of sheep in a paddock and have her balance. Make very slow changes in the balance point yourself. When you see her speeding up, give her a calm correction. A lot of times your body language/voice can do a lot to keep things settled. Try to be ready to block with your hand or stick if she starts to circle around you wildly. Once your successful with this, you can take her into the field and drive with you a little behind her. Be ready when you see her thinking about speeding up. Be sure to tell her "time" or whatever command you use when she's working at that middle gear. Eventually, if you see her speeding up, you can just tell her "time" in a calm voice to slow her down. This isn't an overnight process so be patient!

Renee

[Pipedream Farm]

My 2 year old, Peg, is quick moving. The way I have taught her (and every dog I've trained) the meaning of "time" is in a small area working on balance. I use a small area so that the dog can stop worrying about the sheep escaping. I go into balance work. I then slow down how fast I'm moving the balance point while saying in a slow calm voice " tiiiimmmmmeeee". I'll gradually slow the pace (how fast I move the balance point) down to a very slow walk. Once the dog has slowed its pace to stay on balance I'll then start changing the pace (how fast I move the balance point), using "tiiimmmmeee" when I slow things down. Once this has been mastered in a small area I'll move the exercise out into larger area.

 

This method allows me to teach the concept of time by using the dog's desire to be in balance.

 

Mark

 

Renee beat me to it.

[Deacon Dog]

I've often wondered why no one (to my knowledge) uses two walk up commands, one for walk straight in and one for cover and hold the pressure.

 

I'm a novice, but here's a couple things I've seen good trainers do that you may want to try:

 

Start the wear and then send the dog to one side and cross drive. Encourage the dog and don't drill. You're not practicing driving but teaching the dog to walk straight in (and at the same time freeing up outside flanks).

 

At the pen, try getting the sheep into the pen, get yourself in the mouth and encourage the dog up to you. This should instill confidence as well as teach that the task isn't over until the dog pushes the sheep all the way in.

 

Can't help with the pace thing. Got a pushy dog that I've failed miserably with this myself.

[Pipedream Farm]

I'll bet if you look closely at your dog when it's angling off while wearing it has gotten too close to the sheep, pushing the sheep up on you and they may be trying to get by you. When the sheep are around you, instead of behind you, the balance point has moved to your side. Of course this would not be an issue while driving. This is also related to pace.

 

Mark

[Pipedream Farm]

Actually, I was just going to add that I forgot to mention about changing the pace in the paddock, but Mark got it for you!

Renee

[NancyO]

Hi Kim,

 

I also have a 2 1/2 yr old that moves very fast (Mark and I were comiserating about them at Borders), in addition she liked to slither along on her belly.

 

I've used the same technique that Bill described and would give an immediate slight correction if she got up fast or would say her name, had to be careful about saying her name, as it occ made her look back at me.

 

You need to be using sheep that have weight to them, you might need to work more sheep, 10-20. Sheep that aren't running and will stop when the dog stops. Depending on your field, you may need to find an area, such as a corner they don't really like to go to and set up the drive so that you are driving them towards that area. So that she has to push the sheep some.

 

One exercise that I had been given to work on flanks with one of my other dogs, unexpectedly brought out pace in this dog. The exercise was driving sheep in a large square (not along a fence line) You can put out cones to make the corners of the square. Not sure why, but doing this kept her on her feet (remember,she also slithered on her belly) working at a beautiful pace with out having to command her, except when I needed her to flank to turn the corner.

 

I wish I could say that is took only a few weeks. It has taken more like 9 months. But, her pace has improved dramatically. She'll drive sheep 300 yards, at a very nice pace, holding her line, without any commands at all.

 

You can try corner work with her for getting her to walk up on the sheep at the pen. Have the sheep in the corner. Have the dog about 20 yards away from the sheep. You can be next to the dog or behind her. Have her walk up on the sheep, if she is hesitant, walk with her to give her confidence. You can also do this with you in the corner with the sheep, but be careful you don't get injured if she busts into the sheep, if I am in the corner, I stand on the fence. You don't want the sheep moving out of the corner. You can also work on small flanks like you would need at the pen. After you've worked her for a short bit, I let the dog scoop the sheep out of the corner and then put them back again.

 

I don't let a young dog go to the back of the pen to let sheep out, alot of dogs get in the habit of flipping around to the back of the pen as soon as sheep are in the pen. I take the dog away from the pen, or have the dog lie down a good distance away from the pen, while I take the sheep out of the pen.

 

 

Nancy O

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Mark beat me to the flank thing. Watch those flanks. If she is cutting in when she flanks to hold the pressure, she is reducing her distance (her leverage) and creating more pressure. You always have to keep an eye out for this on a pushy dog.

 

Watch the sheep - you see ears flick back in alarm or heads getting flung up, fuss a bit. That's the point you want to try to stop this, not when you're tripping over the sheep. If that doesn't work, stop the dog like Bill said. Just to give the sheep a chance to settle and re-set the situation. If the dog comes up hootin' and hollerin' scold her and make her do it again (Down, walk up). Ie, you don't let her work until she's working right.

 

It's a lot of pressure so like Renee and Bill said, set her up for success in that respect. Quiet sheep, plenty of space, quiet calm handler.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Nancy O beat me to it. Only much better.

 

two walk up commands, one for walk straight in and one for cover and hold the pressure.

Can you explain what you had in mind here Tony?

[Shoofly]

Tony - Kent Kuykendall does exactly that, he has 2 commands that mean different things. Time means walk straight in right there and steady means quiet down and balance the sheep. I actually have 2 myself, well actually, almost 3. "There" means turn and walk in right there, "time" means walk in right there slowly or else slow down if on a flank, and "steady" means figure out balance and settle the sheep down.

[Deacon Dog]

Interesting. I've seen Kent work Laz several times, but I can't decipher his whistle patterns, so I don't know what he's telling the dog.

 

What I meant is suppose you get your dog behind the stock, and there's a very strong draw to the right such that your dog has to be at 3 o'clock to cover. You tell your dog to walk up. How does it know whether to hold the pressure and keep the sheep moving toward you or drive the sheep perpendicular to you? If I understand Robin's post, she'd use "steady" or "there," respectively, instead of "walk up."

[kimkathan]

I like the idea of having a different command for time and steady, this would help with some of our problem. She drives well, stays off the stock better and is not as pushy, probably because she needs to put more pressure on them for them to move. When she's wearing is when she's really on their tails, and blows them by us. At this point I think she needs something to reminder her that she needs to stay back off of them and to take her time ( eventually I think I can ween her off of that).

[Shoofly]

Tony wrote "What I meant is suppose you get your dog behind the stock, and there's a very strong draw to the right such that your dog has to be at 3 o'clock to cover. You tell your dog to walk up. How does it know whether to hold the pressure and keep the sheep moving toward you or drive the sheep perpendicular to you? If I understand Robin's post, she'd use "steady" or "there," respectively, instead of "walk up." "

 

Yep, steady means find balance and bring the sheep in a sensible pace. There means walk right in there where i'm telling you to.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I closed my eyes and ran that scenario with Don. If I told Don to walk up, he'd move himself to that draw (but I'd have to watch his flank and pace). At that point he'd hold the line as he felt it until the next time I needed to correct his line. At that point I'd move him where I wanted him and end the flank with "there." "There" means turn in and start walking. If I ended the flank with a stop, he'd lay down in the direction he was facing when he was flanking, unless the heads were turned to me. If I wanted him to stop and hold them (as while shedding or doing other work at hand), I'd use a stop and the teeniest walk up possible to turn him in on the pressure.

[Shoofly]

Kim - saw your post on the SD list about this dog so i'm guessing you're not having any luck slowing her down? A question - when you tell her to take time, does she actually slow down?

 

You say she's right up the butts of the sheep and i suspect maybe you just need to get the dog to understand that take time means to slow down, that your problem really is that the dog doesn't know what take time means. Some dogs never get "pace" and just have to be handled into it and it may be this is your dog. You may need to teach her to slow down just like you had to teach her what the flank commands meant, and lie down meant, etc.

[kimkathan]

She does know what time means. When driving the sheep away or doing an assisted drive/cross-drive, she's pretty nice and slow. Also, when she's tired and dosen't want to battle with me, when she's fast and I give her a time, she'll take it. I started working on the "steady" idea as previously posted. Trying to get her to stay off of the stock and not trying to push them so much. She has been notorious for just liking to make things run. I took her in the paddock last night and tried the balance work and moving slower. She'll do it, but it is really apparent that she dosen't like it. She'll stop and eat manure, try to cut to the head by not squaring up. To her, slow is not fun! I then took her into our large field this morning, lying her down, letting the sheep drift, getting in front of them, and then walking her up, giving her a steady, when she got to the position where she started to apply pressure on them, and time, when her butt started to bounce. The sheep were more interested in eating than the dog, so I could concentrate on her. I still wonder if she'll understand that time means to slow down, and steady means holding the balance and moving them, but not pushing into them. We'll see. These dogs always seem to amaze me, so why not?

[Shoofly]

"Also, when she's tired and dosen't want to battle with me, when she's fast and I give her a time, she'll take it."

 

So does she not take it if she doesn't feel like it? I'm wondering if it's an obedience issue.

 

It would make sense that she'd do better when driving - you're right there with her and she's probably less confident in that situation anyway and less likely to blow you off.