Sheep Dogs or Cattle Dogs

[Cowsavy]

I know you are getting tired of my questions but how else am I going to fine out things. I have several people say you don't want a dog that is parents have been uese on sheep mostly, because they have bred the bite out of them. Is this true? I have a stock of Border Collies that come for sheep stock. They are all red and white and throw all Red and white pups. But they sure have the bite and the courage too. One of my 3 mo old pups got out of the pen and killed 2 goats. At least she was the only dog out when they got killed I didn't see it but I did the goats. These were full grown goats too. Is is that they are stoped biting before they really start or is it bred out of them? I let mine bite but try to not let them hang on. This I don't like and I try from day one to get them to bite on comand but this takes a while a long while most of the time. I also get good results on the biting on a peice of intertube on a string I can get the comand down pat with the tube but seems to take them a while to transfer the take hold comand to stock, and susjustions.

[Smokjbc]

Hi,

 

Since no one else is chimed in, I'll give you my two cents.

 

I don't think its true across the board that dogs bred to work sheep will not make good cow dogs. It takes a pretty strong dog, so if you are looking at sheepdogs, you will want to select from lines that are strong and probably not "kind" to their stock. Not that dogs shouldn't be reasonable and work sheep without unnecessary grips- but alot of dogs I see described as "kind" are not the kind of dog that is willing to push cows around. Your best bet is looking at the parents and grandparents- if they are dogs that could not work cows, you have a problem. If they were dogs that never or rarely worked cows, but are plenty strong on sheep (along with being talented dogs to begin with), you may be fine with sheepdog lines. Also, some cow dog lines (not all certainly) sacrifice alot of balance and good stock sense for grip- a dog does need the grip as a tool, but its just a tool. What they need more is balance and a good mind. If sheepdog lines you know produce that, along with a brave, strong dog, I think they are just as good of a bet as many cow dog lines that are out there. In my own dogs, I haven't found they have been particularly bred for either/or. They are usually a mix of dogs that worked sheep or dogs that worked cows- not really a "line". Just dogs that were good at working stock. My best cow dog is mostly "sheepdog" bred, with some token cow dog lines at the bottom. But she has balance and stock sense, and is willing to grab a nose thats not going where its supposed to.

 

 

I also want to say that aggression towards stock (like killing goats) is not indicative of ability in my opinion. That is more about prey drive, not herding. A puppy that does such a thing is not likely to be any better of a cow dog than the pup that doesn't. What I want to see in a pup is that they want to balance or hold stock and will nip when they think the stock isn't where it should be (preferably the nose). If the goats were killed outright, pulled down and killed, then that is just prey drive and not showing an ability (it shouldn't happen at all, pups should be kept out of trouble!). Lots of breeds of dogs would do the same thing, not just Border Collies.

[borderman]

First of all a good border collie can work both sheep or cows. A weak dog has nothing to do with the parents in most cases. Who wants a dog that weak who can not do both. Most the time it is the training when it was young. So many people start their dogs too young and they get hurt which would cause this problem. I also do not believe that a 3 month old could kill a sheep. Just my guess.

[Mary & Dogs]

Actually, a goat would be a lot more likely to kill a 3 month old puppy than the other way around.

 

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Mary Hartman

Kansas City, MO

[Cowsavy]

I may have been wrong about this pup killing the goats, She Had torn a hole in the pen and had gotten out and was close to the goats when I got home, but yesterday when I got home there were 3 stray dogs close to the goat pen. They were barking at the goats and trying to get in to them. Now I am not sure if it was my pup or not. More than likely not. I have redone my pens and also my goat pens are dog proof now or at least I hope they are. SmokJBC I think your probally right about the dogs. As far as the hard and the kind. My dogs has plenty of bite which I prase them for as long as they just bite. I don't want them hanging on. Yet they work baby calves with kid gloves. They seem to know the difference. I have never seen one of them bite a calf or baby goat. Witch tells me they have the right mind to handle stock Thinks for the reply.