So how do you think "the dog" should be trained?

[geonni banner]

Hmmmm. Well, after perusing the latest Caesar Milan thread, I came to a point where I thought, there seems to be a wide range of opinions on this thread, and by association, on these Boards, on how dogs should be trained. Feelings ran high.

 

I myself trained professionally for three years. I stopped for two reasons. 1) A medical condition that rendered me mentally and physically unfit for the task, and 2) a shift in my life from being primarily dog-focused to being primarily arts-focused. Having a positive relationship with my own dog is enough dog in my life for me at this point in my life. I do still take on the occasional client, usually someone I know who has seen the results I get and wants help trouble-shooting.

 

My own “method,” if you can call it that, is a modified version of “The Koehler Method.” Yes, I use food rewards/ incentives. But I usually only use them in the learning phase of teaching some behaviors – until I am certain that the dog understands what is expected of it. (And as an occasional “atta boy!” for an exceptional performance. The other circumstance that I use food rewards/incentives in is if the dog has an apparent lack of confidence or other fear issues. I feel that this dog needs to simply build confidence and trust in its handler, and regular obedience instruction should wait on that.

 

I use physical corrections, usually “choke corrections” with most dogs. (Again, only with normal, self-confident dogs.) I do not feel that choke or prong collars are medieval torture devices. However, I don’t believe they are for the average dog owner, as timing and dog-reading ability are absolutely essential to using them effectively and humanely. But if you have the skills, they can be excellent training tools, as can a clicker, which also requires a fluency in timing if it is to yield the desired result.

 

Personally, I feel that any training method that produces a happy, “tails up,” and reliably obedient dog is probably a good method. (I also feel that it should not require half of the dog’s lifespan to produce such a dog - excepting again, dogs with serious "issues.") I’m interested in what other Board members feel is “Good Dog Training,” and how they arrived at their conclusions. I am interested in the opinions of pet-owners and the owners of dogs that work for a living. I do not mean to address the methods involved in stock-dog training, because I know VERY little about it, and have zero experience with it. I am mostly interested in how people "civilize" their dogs.

[Guest echoica]

I use positive reinforcement and negative punishment. Avoiding negative reinforcement and positive punishment as much as possible. I am not a fan of dominance theory...or medieval torture devices NILIF is also a wonderful principle.

[Jedismom]

I use positive reinforcement and negative punishment. Avoiding negative reinforcement and positive punishment as much as possible. I am not a fan of dominance theory...or medieval torture devices NILIF is also a wonderful principle.

 

For those of you who don't know what those terms mean (it can be confusing), here's a website that has some good info on it. Scroll to the bottom for a simple chart. I use positive reinforcement (attention, praise, treats) and negative punishment (ignoring, no praise, no treats) also and NILIF. Wow..I just said what echoica said.

 

http://www.wagntrain.com/OC/#Operant

[Flamincomet]

I use the same methods as the previous two posters, no choke chains, prongs or the like, for everything but stockdog training. For stockdog training I do whatever my instructor tells me, LOL. Which so far includes verbal corrections, praise and pressure.

[pansmom]

For those of you who don't know what those terms mean (it can be confusing), here's a website that has some good info on it. Scroll to the bottom for a simple chart. I use positive reinforcement (attention, praise, treats) and negative punishment (ignoring, no praise, no treats) also and NILIF. Wow..I just said what echoica said.

 

http://www.wagntrain.com/OC/#Operant

 

 

What a helpful layperson's website. I never understood those terms before now. Reinterpreting what I know through that language, I can say I'm no expert but my experience, reading, and behaviorist consultation has led me to be big on positive reinforcement (praise and treats and attention) and negative punishment (withdrawal of eye contact, dramatic ignoring, stopping of walking for leash pulling, etc.). I also kinda do NILIF light unless "the dog" is sick (when she's well, Vala must do something I have asked her to do for any privilege--even feeding--although I don't make her do something for each kibble, that would be tedious--she sits or downs, she gets praise and the bowl). I also occasionally use positive punishment - verbal - if the dog does something really bad. Like crosses a dangerous threshold the dog isn't supposed to cross, or pulls the leash out of my hand and I want her to stop, I'll freak out and carry on and say, No! I am lucky that my current dog does not require anything more than that.

 

Actually now that I think about it I have used physical positive punishment since I did all this research and learning - but only once. A few weeks ago Vala snapped at me. She was sick. She felt bad. She wasn't trying to actually nip or connect, she was just trying to communicate something to me. She was lying in the bathroom and I had told her to go to her kennel. She didn't want to get up. What I usually do in that situation is make like I'm going to pull her gently up by the collar. Usually all I have to do is walk up to her and she gets up and listens (a couple times early on I gently pulled her up by the collar, so she knows I'll make her go if she ignores me). But this time was right after her heartworm shot and any pressure on her throat caused pain and coughing. I had forgotten that and wasn't thinking as I bent over her. But this time, instead of listenning and getting up, she wanted to make absolutely sure I didn't actually pull her collar - because it would hurt her - so she communicated this by basically pantomiming a snap that was aimed to miss. The behavior did the trick - she communicated what she wanted to communicate to me - I got the picture. But it also earned her a quick soft pop on the nose (with the hand she was snapping at/toward - almost like a block) and a stern "no ma'am." And then I made her get up anyway and go to her kennel. By then I felt bad about popping her - even as gently as I did - because I understood why she had done it by that point and that it was only communication and she wasn't going to actually connect. But on the other hand, I no longer have to threaten the motion of pulling her up anymore. It was like she bluffed, I called her bluff, and now she listens immediately and goes to her kennel (where she always gets a yummy kong), because she wants to avoid that confrontation. So I guess I can see the power of positive punishment in this sense. I just don't want to scare her, because she is a very sensitive dog, and I never want to escalate violence, so I try to avoid physical punishment at all costs in any situation where I can.

 

I can't think of a situation in which I've used negative reinforcement.

 

I also love clickers. Vala is scared of them - can't seem to get her out of that, even through attempted desens. with a pen click and peanut butter, which actually made her afraid of PEANUT BUTTER VERY BRIEFLY - so lately I've started teaching her that a particular sound I can make with my tongue is a click. It is working beautifully. I plan to use it for capturing and shaping in a few days. More training methods I like.

 

I would be interested to know more about the difference between pet and working owners' methods.

[Root Beer]

My approach is very different from most on the boards. But everybody here knows that already!

 

I am basically reinforcment only trainer.

 

To be technically precise, I do use just a teeeny bit of negative punishment - particularly with a dog who is new to the household and needs to learn basic structures like sleep at night, limit play and chewing to dog toys, eat only from your own bowl, etc. I'm certainly not one to march a dog off the Agility field for breaking a startline or missing a contact, but I will use some neutral tethering and time outs to help a dog get the gist of basic household rules. But in the grand scheme of things, I use so little of that over the course of a dog's life that it is almost negligible.

 

But I use reinforcement to train basic behaviors, sport skills, fun tricks and games, play skills, and for behavior modification - everything, really. I do train heavily with the clicker, but I don't use it for absolutely everything and I can not technically be considered a "clicker trainer" since I use lures quite liberally.

 

When a behavior problem arises, my thought is not "what should I do to the dog to get this to stop?", but "what should I do with the dog to help learn a more appropriate behavior (or mindset)?" I don't set a dog up to be "wrong" and then apply a punisher. I set the dog up to be right and reinforce until reinforcement is no longer necessary in that situation. And if the dog cannot be successful, I change what I'm doing to make success possible.

 

Like I said - a very different approach. It is quite counter cultural these days. All the same, I absolutely love it.

 

How did I arrive at this conclusion? My answer to that question would be very long! I can go into it if anyone really wants to hear it!!

 

But that's my take.

[pansmom]

My approach is very different from most on the boards. But everybody here knows that already!

 

I am basically reinforcment only trainer.

 

To be technically precise, I do use just a teeeny bit of negative punishment - particularly with a dog who is new to the household and needs to learn basic structures like sleep at night, limit play and chewing to dog toys, eat only from your own bowl, etc. I'm certainly not one to march a dog off the Agility field for breaking a startline or missing a contact, but I will use some neutral tethering and time outs to help a dog get the gist of basic household rules. But in the grand scheme of things, I use so little of that over the course of a dog's life that it is almost negligible.

 

But I use reinforcement to train basic behaviors, sport skills, fun tricks and games, play skills, and for behavior modification - everything, really. I do train heavily with the clicker, but I don't use it for absolutely everything and I can not technically be considered a "clicker trainer" since I use lures quite liberally.

 

When a behavior problem arises, my thought is not "what should I do to the dog to get this to stop?", but "what should I do with the dog to help learn a more appropriate behavior (or mindset)?" I don't set a dog up to be "wrong" and then apply a punisher. I set the dog up to be right and reinforce until reinforcement is no longer necessary in that situation. And if the dog cannot be successful, I change what I'm doing to make success possible.

 

Like I said - a very different approach. It is quite counter cultural these days. All the same, I absolutely love it.

 

How did I arrive at this conclusion? My answer to that question would be very long! I can go into it if anyone really wants to hear it!!

 

But that's my take.

 

Kristine, how would you teach off leash recalls in a large park w/ high prey drive dog and squirrels? (Particularly high prey drive dog who is far less food/ball/play motivated than prey motivated.) Also what would you have done in the situation I describe above with Vala? I wish I knew the best thing to do in a situation like that. In an ideal world I would do positive reinforcement only. But really I don't see how you can get along without negative punishment (specifically withdrawing attention--eye contact--how would you teach a dog not to jump on you? not to constantly swarm you for attention or control your movements?)

[Guest echoica]

Ah yes! I forgot to mention clickers...I do that too

 

As a side, there is absolutely nothing wrong with negative punishment in training. It's like jelly in the peanut butter positive reinforcement sandwich. People assume when hearing those words - "negative!" and "punishment?!" *gasp* - that it is a horrible thing but simply put...you are taking away a stimulus to reduce/extinguish an unwanted behaviour. "Negative Punishment" is just technical terms for it. And we all do it all the time. An example would be kind of like...not leaving food out on the counter. there is nothing bad about that in training at all. If you are like many of the new trainers these days that only advocate for the most positive and humane methods of training. Whereas "positive punishment" is the bad guy (but still has it's uses from time to time) pretending to sound all good ...you are ADDING a behaviour to get rid of a desired behaviour. And example of the latter is a leash correction.

 

I did honors Psychology at university and concentrated a lot of my studies on behaviourism so excuse me for sounding like a geek BF Skinner - the original dude who posited Operant Conditioning - is my hero!

[mum24dog]

Kristine, how would you teach off leash recalls in a large park w/ high prey drive dog and squirrels? (Particularly high prey drive dog who is far less food/ball/play motivated than prey motivated.)

 

Not Kristine - but this is a good approach for anyone prepared to put the work in -

 

http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/how-do-i-stop-my-dog-chasing

 

Pam

[mum24dog]

NILIF is also a wonderful principle.

 

Hmmmm - depends on whether you are using it in it's original form or in a way that most people use the term nowadays - ie as a trade off to teach a measure of self control in certain situations.

That's just training to me and I prefer to avoid the term as it leads to misunderstandings since people have different interpretations of what it means.

 

Here is an explanation of the dangers of over strict application of NILIF principles -

 

http://www.coape.co.uk/awsn_statement.html

 

Most people using what they think is NILIF won't identify with that. It just shows the dangers inherent in catchy labels.

 

Pam

[mum24dog]

When a behavior problem arises, my thought is not "what should I do to the dog to get this to stop?", but "what should I do with the dog to help learn a more appropriate behavior (or mindset)?" I don't set a dog up to be "wrong" and then apply a punisher. I set the dog up to be right and reinforce until reinforcement is no longer necessary in that situation. And if the dog cannot be successful, I change what I'm doing to make success possible.

 

Like I said - a very different approach. It is quite counter cultural these days.

 

And this is why people who would claim to use a clicker but also use aversive training methods really haven't understood what it is all about.

Clicker training requires a dog to be able to succeed. Corrections should not therefore be necessary - if they are it is a failure on the part of the trainer. They really are mutually exclusive.

I think part of the problem is that many people don't really see what they are doing as punishment.

I'm not claiming that I never use positive punishment with my dogs - I do very occasionally if necessary but not as a training method. I'm human and my dogs are dogs and sometimes they push the boundaries and need a firm reminder, that's all. The voice of doom comes in handy.

 

Pam

[mum24dog]

Sorry - double post.

 

Pam

[topnotchdog]

Interesting thread. I think whatever one's methods, it never hurts to occasionally re-evaluate what approach one is taking (and I consciously make an effort to do that). Like any field, dog training changes as we learn more. People have been training animals with a kind, clear, effective hand long before Skinner or The Monks (who have since revised some of their thinking). So there are a variety of effective approaches to choose from. (Someone alluded to heated discussions---I don't think anyone should be attacked or poo-poo'd for the approach they choose, that doesn't seem productive.)

 

I have trained different ways over the years (I am talking family dog training here, and also agility and some obedience), and in a nutshell I avoid using force (kicking, hitting, collar corrections, physically pushing the dog into a sit or down, etc.) since there is nearly always a pretty straight-forward way to prevent the dog from being rewarded from what I don't want and rewarding him for what I do want. That doesn't mean it's always easy or perfect (like any approach), but that's what I prefer. I don't use bribes; that's not training (if someone finds the dog 'won't do it unless they have a treat' something is very, very wrong. Kinda bums me out to see it as it gives reward-based training a bad name ).

 

I started out using what are often called traditional training methods. Later I became a fairly strict adherent to positive reinforcement only based training (10 years ago it made a big splash in dog training thanks to some very talented folks, and it was quite exciting). A while back I observed that in heading toward more force-free methods, some people have thrown the baby out with the bath water. To me, dogs are the ultimate teachers. They can teach us a lot about punishment and reinforcement and the short and long-term effects of each much better than a book, guru, dvd or a fad. (For the fellow geeks out there , Thorndike, Skinner and Premack may look over my right shoulder when I train, but Lorenz, Tinbergen and Goodall look over my left.) One of my dog training mentors described "corrections" to me in nautical terms---if you get off course, you make an adjustment to get back on course. If it doesn't hurt of scare the dog, and gets him back on track, may be worth considering (and may not even be 'punishment' in the scientific definition).

 

I think that is what is ultimately so fascinating to me about stock work. So many variables in play, usually pretty overwhelming, *much* more fluid in terms of communication v.s. strict stimulus control, very humbling, very amazing. I think it's important to listen to the dog to see what the effects of rewards or punishments are (and of course the sheep, and the human should be comfortable with the training choices, too; life's too short!).

 

Here is a link that may be of interest from the Association of Pet Dog Trainers. Their bias is definitely toward reward-based training (I am a member). But it covers a wide variety of topics that have come up. And for what it's worth, Cesar Milan doesn't freak me out. I have yet to see him make a training choice I would make, but I think he has done a lot to spread the idea that people can help their dogs & that people should be providing their dogs with basic needs like exercise and boundaries. And everyone is talking about him (all the time, it seems!) which to me just shows how solid is his brand, his lingo, his marketing, and his ability to tap into what people want.

 

Barbara

[Maralynn]

Kristine, how would you teach off leash recalls in a large park w/ high prey drive dog and squirrels? (Particularly high prey drive dog who is far less food/ball/play motivated than prey motivated.)

 

I'm not Kristine, But I am dealing with the high drive dog/squirrel thing. I'm doing a couple things. First off is build the drive for the toy - you can transfer that prey drive. Second, I'm gradually working the distractions in. The park sounds like a high distraction area for her and I'd avoid it for a little while and work on building her toy drive with you if possible.

Here is a video I found that demonstrates drive building

 

I'm doing something much like that with Kenzi to build her toy drive for SAR work. I use braided fleece tugs or flying squirrel frisbees instead. I slowly add the distractions in - I practice in several low distraction areas and when she's super keen there, I bump up the distractions just a bit. Short sessions work best and leave the dog eager for more.

[mum24dog]

Interesting thread. I think whatever one's methods, it never hurts to occasionally re-evaluate what approach one is taking (and I consciously make an effort to do that).

 

I agree - if you don't you just stagnate.

CM is a giant leap backwards though.

 

Here is a link that may be of interest from the Association of Pet Dog Trainers. Their bias is definitely toward reward-based training (I am a member).to tap into what people want.

 

Barbara

 

I note that

 

The APDT is dedicated to building better trainers through education, promoting dog-friendly methods and encouraging their use. Our membership is composed of trainers from across the spectrum of training philosophies who have an interest in furthering their knowledge of positive training. Membership in the APDT does not necessarily ensure all members employ similar training methods. nor does the Association set standards of skill or competence.

 

Seems like CM himself could pay his dues and become a member.

 

Our UK APDT is different, although there are inevitably rogue members who haven't yet been weeded out by spot inspections.

 

This is our Code of Practice - note the equipment specifically banned -

 

http://www.apdt.co.uk/about_APDT.asp#appendix1

 

And ours does set standards of skills and competence.

 

which to me just shows how solid is his brand, his lingo, his marketing, and his ability to tap into what people want.

 

Which is entertainment and quick fixes with minimal effort from them.

 

 

Pam

[Root Beer]

Kristine, how would you teach off leash recalls in a large park w/ high prey drive dog and squirrels?

 

The initial training would start at home, of course.

 

If the dog did not have any noise issues, I would use Pam Dennison's whistle recall method. She has a DVD out that's really inexpensive. It's simple to use and it does not take very long to implement. It's not an instant method, but it is actually a pretty fast process. Shorter than the duration of most training classes.

 

Since the DVD is copyrighted, I won't describe the steps in detail, but she does incorporate a "whiplash turn" kind of step and there is a good deal of work on a long line. All reinforcement based - the long line is never used as a correction, but is strictly a safety tool.

 

In addition to doing all of the steps with the whistle, I would repeat them (after completing the process with a whistle) using a distinct verbal cue (like "return"). And, for a dog with noise issues, I would complete the process with a verbal instead of the whistle.

 

With a high prey drive dog, I would spend a lot of time on the long line step in an outdoor area where there are not a lot of distractions before moving that step into a park, etc.

 

In addition, I would add in the Look at That Game from Control Unleashed to address the prey motivation. Having the transformation in Dean, that is my tool of choice for a dog who is visually stimulated by anything (other dogs, bicycles, cars, etc.). Again, the key is to start at home and gradually increase the difficulty level of the trigger. For instance, the dog needs to be able to play the game with a human family member jogging by slowly before you start to play with dogs at a park from inside the car. And the dog needs to be able to play Look at That with dogs at a park inside the car before you take it out of the car, etc., etc.

 

And, in addition to the Look at That Game, I would play the Give Me a Break Game using off leash freedom (in a secure place) as the reward for the recall. This can be a challenge since it can be tough to find a safe place where you can turn your dog loose. I would start this in the house, in my yard yard, in an outdoor area with low distraction, etc. before taking it to the park.

 

(Particularly high prey drive dog who is far less food/ball/play motivated than prey motivated.)

 

Since you ask what I would do, I will say here that I would do some work with the dog to build both food and play drive. It can be done. Neither of my Border Collies came to me food/toy/or play motivated. I built that over time. With Speedy I didn't even have a clue that I was doing that, but I realized it over time. With Dean I set out to build both and, again over time, it definitely happened.

 

Building food motivation starts with a hungry dog and a VERY high value reward. I start with meat - roast beef or ham or something that the dog finds irresistible. Pairing that with a secondary reinforcer, like a clicker (or pen click or whatever you need to use) goes a long way toward building food motivation.

 

It might seem backwards, but the higher the value of the rewards that you train with, the lower the value of rewards that you need in the long run. That's because it's a conditioning process. Once the dog is strongly conditioned to take treats as a reinforcer, the value of the treat itself becomes less important - except in cases where there is a high level of distraction or something. And, lest anyone get the wrong impression - having a dog that is strongly conditioned to take treats as a reinforcer does not create a dog who will not work without food. It's a process and you do get to the point where the food is not necessary in everyday instances.

 

Now, I know that you have some unusual limitations with Vala because of her health situation. Her health affects her appetite and willingness to eat, and probably her desire to play. So, I'm not really referring to her specifically here. I'm talking in general terms. With a dog with health problems, I would probably put aside all but the simplest and most necessary of training until the dog were healthy again.

[topnotchdog]

http://www.apdt.co.uk/about_APDT.asp#appendix1

 

And ours does set standards of skills and competence.

 

Thanks for posting this link, Pam. Very interesting to see the difference in approaches of the groups. (I wonder what percentage of US APDT members would use any of the items on that list, I am curious.)

 

Which is entertainment and quick fixes with minimal effort from them.

Pam

Well, yeah, reality tv at its finest! I was suggesting that if those who favor reward-based methods could get the equivalent of his marketing team and his entertainment appeal, we might not even be talking about him right now. Have you seen Barking Mad? Saw it a long time ago, but haven't been able to find it since (I live in the US). Also a very entertaining show and techniques I would actually use and recommend. (One of my favorite episode was one in which the family was struggling with a turtle who bit visitors.) On another note, I wonder how the internet and social networking will influence main stream dog training in the near future, too.

 

Barbara

[Root Beer]

Also what would you have done in the situation I describe above with Vala? I wish I knew the best thing to do in a situation like that. In an ideal world I would do positive reinforcement only. But really I don't see how you can get along without negative punishment (specifically withdrawing attention--eye contact--how would you teach a dog not to jump on you? not to constantly swarm you for attention or control your movements?)

 

Is this the situation to which you refer?

 

A few weeks ago Vala snapped at me. She was sick. She felt bad. She wasn't trying to actually nip or connect, she was just trying to communicate something to me. She was lying in the bathroom and I had told her to go to her kennel. She didn't want to get up. What I usually do in that situation is make like I'm going to pull her gently up by the collar. Usually all I have to do is walk up to her and she gets up and listens (a couple times early on I gently pulled her up by the collar, so she knows I'll make her go if she ignores me). But this time was right after her heartworm shot and any pressure on her throat caused pain and coughing. I had forgotten that and wasn't thinking as I bent over her. But this time, instead of listenning and getting up, she wanted to make absolutely sure I didn't actually pull her collar - because it would hurt her - so she communicated this by basically pantomiming a snap that was aimed to miss. The behavior did the trick - she communicated what she wanted to communicate to me - I got the picture. But it also earned her a quick soft pop on the nose (with the hand she was snapping at/toward - almost like a block) and a stern "no ma'am." And then I made her get up anyway and go to her kennel. By then I felt bad about popping her - even as gently as I did - because I understood why she had done it by that p

 

Before I answer this, I want to be clear on one thing. I'm not saying what I think you should have done. I am saying what I would do.

 

Considering the health issue, I probably would have backed off and let the dog be.

 

Just as a dog who is overstimulated or overly stressed or in a fearful panic is not in the state of mind to learn, neither is a dog who is in a serious amount of physical discomfort. I don't view that as time for training and I'm not the least bit worried about what I will or will not want when the dog is in good health. I'm not worried about the dog "getting away with not listening" at that time. (I'm not saying that you are. That is typically the #1 reason I hear for people making the dog do something, regardless of the specific situation)

 

So, if the dog did not really need to be in the kennel at that moment, I would probably have let her be.

 

If she did need to get to the kennel, then I would need to make a judgment call.

 

Being a reinforcement based trainer does not mean that I never tell my dogs not to do something. For instance, sometimes Speedy gets snarky with Dean when they are playing ball. If he kind of gets "stuck" in "snark", I'll say - in a very neutral tone - "Speedy, enough of that". Just hearing me say that will direct him back into play mode.

 

So, I might have said something like "enough" in this case, if the dog knows what it means, and then gently helped her into the crate.

 

Again, it's hard to say because I don't know Vala, nor the effect that her health issue has on her. Of course, safety is always top priority. A dog that is in pain does not always have total control over his or her responses. I wouldn't be worried about training in this case, but would do what needed to be done for safety.

 

One final example, I've mentioned on here that Speedy has arthritis in almost every joint in his body. Sometimes when I'm petting him, I hit a sore spot. He gives a grunty growl. There is nothing substantial to it - he's not going to bite me. But I respect it as communication from him. He's letting me know it hurts. He needs me to stop pushing on him right there, or get him some chiropractic treatment, or get him moved and stretched, or something. It's OK with me for him to do that.

 

Now, not everybody would handle him in the same way, and not everybody would approach what you describe with Vala in the same way. But you did ask what I would do.

 

Finally . . .

 

But really I don't see how you can get along without negative punishment (specifically withdrawing attention--eye contact--how would you teach a dog not to jump on you? not to constantly swarm you for attention or control your movements?)

 

I did say that I do use just a tiny bit of negative punishment, where absolutely necessary. I typically withdraw the opportunity for the dog to be reinforced.

 

As far as jumping, I don't teach my dogs "not" to do things. I teach them what to do. So, for jumping, I want four on the floor. How I teach four on the floor depends a lot on the context. If it is for greeting, I use games to teach "up" and "off" and then cue "off" and reward until it is a strong default. For me "off" is four on the floor, in any context. I do allow jumping up as a greeting when I get home because I LOVE that rush of affection after a day at work. But if I need them to stay off of good clothing, or I have a good reason to want them to refrain from jumping up (like after I had surgery last spring), I cue "off" when I see them and then lean to their level to greet them. They're smart and they understand that sometimes things are different.

 

I do something similar to teach four on the floor with other people. The nice thing about this is that I don't have to go around trying to train people not to let my dogs jump up on them. Seriously - that's nearly impossible! With this approach, they can jump up when invited. It's easier to train people to give a "jump up" cue than to have them turn their backs. At least that's what I've found!

 

For swarming for attention, I might use some negative punishment in the form of crate time. I'd really need to know specific context to form a game plan for this.

 

And controlling movement - I would use a combination of teaching the dog to relax through massage and Mat Work from Control Unleashed and crate time. And I would teach some alternate behaviors like "back up and lie down", "walk in heel", or maybe to carry a toy on cue. A dog who is constantly controlling movement has a very active brain. I would take care not to constantly stimulate the dog, but try to strike a balance between relaxation and more structured activity.

 

Again, I'm not telling anyone what I think they should do. That's just a glimpse into my own thought processes when it comes to household training.

[border_collie_crazy]

I think that every dog is different and the worst thing a person can do is be "stuck" on a certain method and refuse to try anything else. what method I use and how much I mix them depends entirly on the dog and the situation at hand.

[pansmom]

Kristine, thanks for all that information! It's helpful to think about all the other things I could've done in that situation. She really did need to get to her kennel, because the vet instructed that she be crated anytime we left the house and we were leaving (we have to watch her to make sure she didn't run around or do anything active). Also, she was not in pain or discomfort in general at that point - she reacted initially very well to the shot - what was happening was that she would've been caused pain or discomfort had I pulled on her collar even as gently as I normally do to lead her out of her sleeping spot. That was what she was telling me. Hey, that'll hurt. I only realized it with a delay. Otherwise I would've probably just responded with a "no ma'am" (the equivalent of enough) and then gently helped her into her crate (without touching her collar).

 

Everyone else (and Kristine) thanks for the information about prey drive. I am not teaching this right now of course! But I'm thinking forward to the future. Her recall is pretty good -- but squirrels VERY occasionally set her off. "Look at that" is a great idea for building desensitization to squirrels. With the new tongue click we're doing I think I can finally do enough shaping and capturing to teach that. Also building her food and play drive -- all of this after she's well of course.

[Shetlander]

I think that every dog is different and the worst thing a person can do is be "stuck" on a certain method and refuse to try anything else. what method I use and how much I mix them depends entirly on the dog and the situation at hand.

 

 

Yeah, what she said! Years ago, one of my obedience instructors observed that we become better trainers and owners with each dog. I've found that to be so true. My training style is fairly eclectic. I do a lot of clicker training. That is my preference actually. However, I am not purely positive. Quinn wears a mini prong with rubber tips when we go for walks. I used to have a no pull harness but I think he hid it.

 

So I use some corrections and yes, I have learned some valuable things from CM, though at the time I was learning them from another instructor. Only later did I realize she was talking about CM's approach to training and living with dogs. I've found it very helpful in dealing with the antagonism that was developing between Quinn and my Lhasa.

 

Sometimes I think if I was a better owner, I'd be more like Kristine who is so patient and sticks to positive reinforcement. I just don't feel like I have the energy or creative thought to always take a clicker approach. Sometimes, I'm tired, rushed, or crabby. I might yell a bit , saying things like "Knock it off!" (they do, right away). I also say, "Swear to god!" (though I'm not sure what I'm vowing to do) and "I'm going to smack you on the head" (but I don't). On the other hand, I am far from a bad owner, my dogs are happy and healthy and we have a good life together. Plus, I'm sure I'll do better with my next dog.

[Maralynn]

Sometimes I think if I was a better owner, I'd be more like Kristine who is so patient and sticks to positive reinforcement. I just don't feel like I have the energy or creative thought to always take a clicker approach. Sometimes, I'm tired, rushed, or crabby. I might yell a bit , saying things like "Knock it off!" (they do, right away). I also say, "Swear to god!" (though I'm not sure what I'm vowing to do) and "I'm going to smack you on the head" (but I don't). On the other hand, I am far from a bad owner, my dogs are happy and healthy and we have a good life together. Plus, I'm sure I'll do better with my next dog.

 

I figure that I live with and work through their imperfections so it won't hurt them to do the same with me once and a while....

 

Yeah, what she said! Years ago, one of my obedience instructors observed that we become better trainers and owners with each dog. I've found that to be so true. My training style is fairly eclectic. I do a lot of clicker training. That is my preference actually. However, I am not purely positive. Quinn wears a mini prong with rubber tips when we go for walks. I used to have a no pull harness but I think he hid it.

 

I'm with you on this!! Each dog teaches me something new and causes me to approach some aspect of training in a different way. Most of the foundation principles are the same, but I still need to tailor my training approach to each dog and it has taught me so much. I try to train in a positive manner to keep if fun and motivating for the dog and set them up for success, but I am not purely positive either. I use simple and clear corrections when I feel they are needed and move on from there.