Ranch pup vs trial pup

[flyer]

I'm sure this has been discussed to death and if someone can point me to a thread that would be great.

 

I am looking for a second BC. I have been searching the rescue sites in my own province and two states over for a couple of months. Hard to find kid friendly, cat friendly, other dog friendly female. I have actually taken in one rescue, but she had an unknown anxiety around males young and old, which was pretty far along the aggression continuum for my family to work with. So I have opened the door to the possibility of another puppy.

 

In order to stay responsible to the breed I have been looking for a litter by proven parents according to what this board suggests and I have been so surprised by what I am finding.

 

There is certainly more than one Astra like breeder out there. Smaller scale, but not hard to find. I have tripped over several of them now. The litter I posted about recently was that sort of thing, but not proven on the sire's side, though the dog was from a successful trial dog, simply too young. It surprised me to find that many trial folk sell dogs on without spaying or neutering. Contracts are simply not going to stop backyard breeders from breeding good dogs and some are breeding them to the studs of other successful trial folk.

 

There are also very nicely bred dogs with the same lines as successful trial people on many ranches and farms. These dogs are proven in the field, but not on paper. They are also about 2 to 3 hundred dollars cheaper.

 

The latter is very attractive to someone like myself who will work sheep as a hobby and or do agility, wants a true BC, but doesn't require a high level of talent.

 

What say you all?

[Maralynn]

I would have no problem buying a pup from a working farm as opposed to one from trialing parents. A few things I would look for when selecting a pup this way would be, how well do they work on the farm? is it just here and there (red flag) or are they used on a regular basis in the farm/ranch operation. How often does the individual breed? If they're breeding the same bitch every year, that would be a red flag, but if they only occasionally breed for themselves/others who need a working dog that is reasonable. What are the parents temperaments like toward people? How are the pups raised? I don't have an issue with pups being raised in the barn or kennel as long as it is clean dry and warm and they get human interaction.

 

I bought my second dog from a working farm that did not trail, but used Border Collies in their everyday operations and understood what went into breeding a good dog. I'd do it again if I was looking for a pup.

 

ETA

The latter is very attractive to someone like myself who will work sheep as a hobby and or do agility, wants a true BC, but doesn't require a high level of talent.

 

These dogs should share similar talents - after all trials are supposed to reflect the real work. It might not be proven, but you should be ask to see the dogs work and be able to see a solid, responsive working dog.

[ejano]

The latter is very attractive to someone like myself who will work sheep as a hobby and or do agility, wants a true BC, but doesn't require a high level of talent.

 

What say you all?

 

My pups came from a local farm - Mama Daisy works every day with sheep, goats, and chickens. They got to watch her from the porch. They're used to all kinds of noises heard around the farm and don't get all crazy and barky when something with wheels goes by and are very quiet - the only barks I hear are when "Mr Squeaky Toy" comes home. Then they howl like banshees, but with delight. They are ABCA registered and have well performing trial dogs as "grandparents" on one side and what appears to be sport/agility dogs on the other. We've got some adolescent "getting along" issues to work out (see the vampire post) but overall they're very even tempered and what you would call "bomb proof."

 

Liz

[juliepoudrier]

I agree with everything Maralynn said. If the ranch-bred pups are being bred responsibly and the work the parents do is more than just super simple stuff that even the family pet could do, then you're probably fine buying from a rancher. In other words, as long as you are fairly confident that you can identify good work when you see it, then you're probably okay buying from a working rancher. (I'd be more inclined to look at dogs who are working large bands on the range, say, then a dog from someome who has 6-10 sheep, simply because the latter person isn't likely to have much work to really test a dog's skills, which is why trialing is important as a means of assessing dogs.) There are lots of folks out there, millers included, who are breeding from well-known trial dogs from here or overseas and then touting said dogs in the pedigrees to unsuspecting buyers. You probably have a lower chance of getting a good working dog from such breeders than you would from a farmer or rancher who meets the criteria Maralynn mentioned. Also something to consider is whether you plan to have a livestock operation of your own at some point. If so, then a farmer/rancher who uses dogs similarly to how you'd use them would be a good place to start.

 

The issue of trial folks not spaying/neutering before a sale is another problem altogether. I think the best solution is to sell on a nonbreeding contract. Then if the person does breed, s/he won't be able to register the pups anyway (at least not with ABCA), but if the working dog is a good one whose genes shouldn't be lost from the working dog gene pool there is a backdoor (convincing the seller at some point down the road to remove the NB status). Anyway, I think owners of working dogs would have a hard time selling them if they weren't also breedable. Frankly, a dog trained to be successful in open has had way more time and effort put in than the seller is going to get back on price and if they had to lower the price because the dog couldn't be bred, they'd essentially be giving away all their time and effort at training.

 

In my view, the answer is for the community as a whole to use peer pressure to stop some of the irresponsible breeding that goes on. A pie in the sky wish, perhaps, in a community that overwhelmingly operates with a "you're not the boss of me" attitude, but one can dream.

 

J.

[mum24dog]

There is certainly more than one Astra like breeder out there.

 

Just curious - what do you understand by that over the pond?

 

I can imagine, but just want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding.

 

Pam

[Sue R]

I'd assume larger-volume, breeding colors, and going on past accomplishments to justify current larger-scale breeding practices. Assumption only on my part. There are certainly a number of breeders who fit this description.

[mum24dog]

I'd assume larger-volume, breeding colors, and going on past accomplishments to justify current larger-scale breeding practices. Assumption only on my part. There are certainly a number of breeders who fit this description.

 

Thanks. That's what I thought it must be from what I see over here.

 

Pam

[flyer]

I'd assume larger-volume, breeding colors, and going on past accomplishments to justify current larger-scale breeding practices. Assumption only on my part. There are certainly a number of breeders who fit this description.

 

 

yep.