How to start without suitable stock?

[Sue R]

Dan is now eight months old, and I've been wondering about what I can do (other than basic dog manners and respect, and so on) to help get him started. I have no stock for starting Dan, and my trainer has just moved and does not yet have a suitable arrangement for starting him. Neither of us believe he's the kind of pup that could be started without a smaller pen, like Celt might have been.

 

Several times recently, when we have been out in the pasture with the calves and they have been predisposed to move towards the feeding area or away from it, I've had Celt and Megan walk behind them and had Dan walk along with me and encouraged him to "walk up". The calves have not been in any position to hesitate or face the dogs because they've already been heading somewhere they chose to go but I think it gives Dan a sense of moving them along and "working" with Celt and Megan.

 

Dan is not keen on stock yet. He was when he was younger and was able to be exposed to sheep. At Donald's trial, when I had him under the tent, he was watching but without any real focus or intensity. He was what I would call maybe a small step past "casually interested". He is the same way about cattle. He may watch them with interest or he may not, and he's a bit intimidated by them (I have avoided any interaction with them other than what I've written here, or being in the same area as they are, but I have to say he was disobedient one day and did have a cow "escort" him out of the pasture, but not overly aggressively).

 

I'm hoping to get him more interested in the cattle and I understand that some dogs don't turn on at a young age. I'd rather have him thoughtful about them right now than out of control with excitement because I have no way to channel or use that sort of interest. We have a clinic in December (on sheep) and I'm sure he will be quite excited to be in the round pen with them then.

 

I guess what I'm wondering is if what I am doing would be beneficial (I've even heard that some trainers do start with driving opportunities) at best or harmless or even harmful at worst. When he's ready and when my trainer is ready, she has offered to take him a while and start him but that can't happen until she has a facility ready.

[kelpiegirl]

Hi Sue

 

As you know, I have a pup about the same age- just turned 9 months. I think generally, cattle are a more adult dog's game. They take a serious head, and sheep are much less imposing, and will bring out the instinct better, as they move quicker, and are just less plodding.

 

If I were you, I would try and either take a trip to a friend's place who has suitable dog broke sheep, or try and make a small pen up yourself, and then, as he gets comfortable with sheep, then, try cattle.

 

My pup is keen on sheep, but he is also not using his brain yet, so we are in a pickle too.

[juliepoudrier]

I think the most general answer is that it's best not to start without suitable stock. I started Lark on my rams and wethers in a 2-3 acre pasture, using Twist as my perimeter keeper and it worked just fine. When I tried to do the same with Pip and Phoebe it was basically a disaster, because they were wide open, run up the middle and bite types and the rams and wethers simply weren't broke enough to not split in a bunch of different directions and run for the hills. Even Twist couldn't contain the wrecks. So, I put those two up until I could get my hands on some well-dogged sheep. It made all the difference in the world.

 

J.

[Lenajo]

I'm all for training as part of the daily work, but you do need to look at worst case scenario. Letting the pup drive the willing cows up the lane they want to go on sounds ok, but what if they spook back at him? There is no way he has the physical or mental skills yet to do anything but get hurt or learn bad habits.

 

I'd put him up until he's older, and more suitable stock is available. If you only have cattle and suitable stock is just not available you might consider sending him out for a month or 2 to get started by someone who does.

[Sue R]

I have experienced what you mentioned, Julie. Celt reads his stock pretty well (his anxiety issues are another thing) and has a natural cast and gather. Bute did not and, when I took him to a particular clinic where there was no round pen and the sheep were just brought in for the clinic (auction sheep, totally non-dog-familiar, much less dog-broke) with a flight zone bigger than the arena we were using, it was a total disaster - I may as well have just thrown my money away. It did Bute no good to even try because it was a set-up for failure for a youngster like him.

 

I have the calves for a limited amount of time, they are reasonably dog-broke thanks to Celt, and they are not aggressive - plus, they are smaller than the cows, more likely to group, and easy to get moving, at least with my help when they are being sluggish.

 

I thought it might be an opportunity to "expose" him to the livestock and let him think that he is influencing them as he walks along behind with the other dogs - and to increase his interest in a pretty calm and quiet manner.

 

What's interesting is that I am getting wonderful replies both here and by PM and email - and the "answers" are all over the place. Many differing opinions, many differing approaches, and all from people I respect. There is more than one way to train a dog...

 

Wendy - We posted at the same time and the plan is to send him out to be started. But, since we are waiting for our trainer to have something suitable in terms of a pen for starting youngsters (Dan would not be one to start in a field), I was just looking for a way for him to be more comfortable around the stock, develop some interest, and start thinking about working - with an easy group of youngsters that tend to look and not react like the adults might.

[Lenajo]

If I had a choice when a dog came in for training I'd prefer no exposure to any questionable qaulity or bad exposure.

[stockdogranch]

I think if the calves are pretty calm, and you have the other dogs there just in case, I see no problem with just letting him have a bit of exposure to them, and encouraging him to want to interact with them. In fact, if they're *quite* calm, I'd even be tempted to let him go round them with another dog to kind of show him to go to balance, etc. But that's just me, and my general philosophy is to kind of let the pup try the next thing and see how they handle it. If it doesn't go as planned/hoped, then we can always back up. But usually I'm pleasantly surprised,

A

[Sue R]

Someone privately did raise a good question that leads me to say - what is "suitable" stock and does someone need "suitable" stock. What I do need to say is that, whether or not "suitable" stock is a necessity for the dog, I certainly know it's a necessity for me!

 

Bute's first clinic was with fresh-from-the-auction sheep brought in just for the clinic. I should have just thrown my money away because for a young dog, essentially first time on stock, it was simply a total failure. Not a good start for a dog. I never entered him (and won't enter another youngster or inexperienced dog) in a clinic or training situation without making sure that the stock are "suitable".

 

Whether "suitable" means knee-knockers (which may have their place), basically dog-broke but not sour (my favorite), or more "challenging" sheep will have to be determined by someone who knows more than I do (which is most everyone). I have found that "middle-of-the-road" sheep are best - a bit light but not too light, moving easily off the dog but not running to the handler, and not sour or surly - they can set a dog (and person) up for success and learning, not for failure and discouragement.

 

For most of the year, I don't have anything but cows, cow-calf pairs, bred heifers, heifer-calf pairs, or all animals together. But, for a short time in late August to mid-October, I have some weanlings. They need to be worked gently because the stock comes first and health and gain are primary considerations, but they do afford the dogs and myself an opportunity that we don't have the rest of the year - young stock that tends to need good dog work, that isn't ever aggressive (although sometimes flighty or silly), and daily chores that can use a dog's help in one way or another.

 

Thanks to all for replies and advice. It may be varied advice but it seems like very sound advice - there is more than one way to accomplish something but I'd like to do the best I can by my youngster, along with my older dog.

[juliepoudrier]

In fact, if they're *quite* calm, I'd even be tempted to let him go round them with another dog to kind of show him to go to balance, etc. But that's just me, and my general philosophy is to kind of let the pup try the next thing and see how they handle it.

 

This is what I did with Twist and Lark (on sheep) and it worked like a charm. I tried it with Twist and Pip (on Tom F's heifers) and while Twist was doing a nice little outrun to get to their heads, Pip cut it short and got there first and then had a situation with a heifer facing him and no other experienced dog to back him up. It rattled him at the time, though he has certainly gotten over that since (and it was just a matter of seconds before Twist got there, but that was enough for the heifer to challenge my youngster and give him serious pause). I also tried that strategy with Pip and Phoebe on sheep, with similar results (they didn't follow mom out and around but instead went up the middle and made a mess). So in that case, I think a lot depends on the temperament/approach of the youngster as well as what the experienced dog will do.

 

The curiosity of the calves would worry me. Unless Celt is able to go around to their heads and take charge and get them moving, I'd be afraid to send Dan with him for fear he'd learn that maybe the calves *can't* be moved.

 

Like Anna, I tend to start early, but the difference is, as you've noted, one of experience, and where someone like Anna can likely read the situation and make sure that things go in a positive direction, that might be a little more difficult for you, especially when dealing with cattle (and please don't take that as an insult--I think that observation would apply to all novice trainers, not just you).

 

As for the question of suitable stock, whether it's needed, and what it is, I think you can get a dog trained on any stock you have available if you are a good trainer. But stock that is dog broke without being sour will make life easier for both trainer and dog and may prevent acquisition of bad habits that will have to be fixed later.

 

J.

[Sue R]

Don't worry, Julie, I don't take offense at all. I am well aware of my limitations and especially where it comes to really reading stock and dogs. I have some time in this game but it's on a limited basis. I have realized that I may take longer as a novice than anyone else but as long as I'm doing my best and learning, and hopefully making some progress, I'm okay. Better that than to exceed my grasp and be a fool about it.

 

In the interest of playing it safe, I'll probably do very little if anything at home. I'll just try and help him be comfortable by letting him along when we are doing chores and when a really suitable opportunity presents itself.

 

As Wendy pointed out, it is worse to do something wrong with a youngster than to do nothing before serious and good training commences. I do believe that many of Bute's shortcomings were due to his on-the-job training that happened because we needed and used him when he wasn't really ready or trained sufficiently - and it did not help him to realize his potential. He still managed to be of tremendous help numerous times but he could have done so much better if he had had a better start in his working life.

 

I think this is going to have to be a lesson in patience on my part. Either that, or I need to ship him to Anna to start and train him.

[Lenajo]

My defination of suitable stock is:

 

sheep: old enough to flock, used to dogs enough to relax respectfully when a dog is on the perimeter. Nothing with lambs, nothing with horns, no fence jumpers or sullers.

 

cattle: old enough to know what a dog is (at least a couple of months) and move off pressure without being bitten. Small enough that if the dog makes a big mistake on his first heel bite that the resulting kick might smart a little, but not kill him. I like small stockers.

 

For the pmer that Sue mentioned that questioned why you need suitable stock at all - the same reason you need a quiet horse for a beginner rider. You need to learn without risk of life and limb. If the first experience is markedly negative the rider, or the dog, may never go back or will always be in the shadow of that first few experiences.

 

Suitable stock, and suitable training situations, are very dependent upon the experience level of the trainer. No shame in that at all.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Stock should be such that your pup learns good things not bad. The training area can alleviate issues with less than ideal stock though. I'm learning that no matter what the level of dog, the right stock and working area can make all the difference when working on something new. The dogs learn far more from the stock than from me (good thing!).

 

I actually consider it a great advantage that Sam will not have to work daily at a low level of training as Ted did. I am still working out oddball kinks in Ted that resulted from letting him work quick and dirty, from ignorance on my part on how to help him learn the right way to do things.

 

Don't be in too much of a hurry! I know where you are, for sure. It's tempting to fast forward to the time when you will be able to take advantage of Dan's solid genetics and instincts. I see flashes in Sam already that have me jonesing to get him going now, at just six months. But i feel it will be better to go slow and take advantageof the ideal situation and experience with the line, that his breeder offers, even though it's less convenient than just throwing him on sheep in the round pen here.