Barking (sorry, long)

[flyer]

Ok, I have posted about Colt's big flaw in life a couple of times. His barking at random people on the trail. I thought I had it fixed at four months and then again after six months and now it has arisen again at 10 mos.

 

At 4 and 6 mos. I took care of it in about a week by distracting him by doing tricks or using his ball. It seemed to only happen sporadically after that and I took care of it as mentioned.

 

This time his drive is stronger and his arousal higher. The ball still works but...I DON"T WANT TO CARRY A BALL THE REST OF MY LIFE.

I recently began clicker training him which he really digs and I have read a few different options when it comes to stopping barking.

 

P. McConnell's anxious dog protocol, Leslie McD's (Control Unleashed) and now Karen Pryor's (Reaching the Animal Mind). They all make sense to me. Mc C's and Mc D's are very similar, but Pryor suggests simply teaching the dog to bark on cue which Colt already knows and then Quiet on a cue.

 

I am concerned that I may have been rewarding his barking as I have been attempting to counter condition and treating like crazy when there are strangers. He seems to just be getting more intelligent and controlled around it. i.e person seen, bark, look at me, click treat, look back at person, bark, look at me, click treats, sit or lie down looking at me click treats, person gets closer, look at them, bark, look at me, click treat. I've only been doing this for three days now. Does this sound like progress or am I really making a mess of things? He is definitely more relaxed, but I'm thinking I am chaining the barking?

 

Want to say that although Colt was a shy puppy I socialized him and I don't think he is barking in fear. He has never shown any signs of aggression even when he was grabbed by his haunches by a man who really really wanted to pat him. ( Holy crap) Colt has a bright look on his face, ears are up, his body is alerted and his tail is up, but he always softens and gets waggy when they get close enough unless they are scared of him and then he gets tense and ups his ante. I am unsure what my pup is feeling when he sees folks. I have been on these trails long enough that numerous people have said that he is just protecting me, giving me a heads up. I don't think so. Of course those are people that pat him regardless and get the waggy body dog stuff.

 

Now yesterday I read in Karen Pryor's new book that she stopped barking by teaching dogs to bark and then to be quiet. So this morning I taught Colt on the trail. He understood this one really fast. He already knew speak on a cue and is very good at it, but I saw the penny drop for the Quiet within just a few clicks. It was weird and he was good at that too. I tried it in several situations when people were quite a distance or separated by trees and it worked like a charm. Not so much as they approached, but I'm thinking that is simply over threshold right now and he can work up to it.

 

So here is my question, finally. Do folks think simply teaching him to be quiet is enough and that I am not clamming up anxiety in my pup that will escalate somehow. Or am I simply teaching a somewhat exuberant, but uncertain pup to mind his manners and all will be well? I appreciate the fact that without seeing my pup in action this is a hard question to answer, but opinions and thoughts would help I think.

 

I'd be happy to answer any questions.

[sluj]

quick thought - hopefully someone more knowlegable will chime in but could he be entering one of his puppy "fear periods"? If so, it will most likely pass IF encounters are kept positive.

 

In any case I would be keeping up the calming protocols ("watch me" or similar), making sure to give the command well before the stranger gets close. I find it helpful to get between my dog and any perceived threat, so teaching to heel on either side, or to sit off to the side of the path may help. And control any interactions - even though he didn't snap at the guy who grabbed him, it's not likely it helped his confidence any. He'll probably bark less when he feels more secure you'll protect him from the bogeymen.

[flyer]

Thx Sluj for responding. Yes, a herding trainer mentioned this could happen again to Colt. Her advice was to ignore it, but it is unnerving to people who are afraid of a barking dog on our walks. He doesn't lunge or even pull towards them, simply alerts and barks. If he is off leash he doesn't run toward them he stops, alerts and barks.

 

I just want to be sure I am doing the right thing by him so that it doesn't escalate into something else. I read so many threads about reactive fearful dogs. I don't want Colt to go this route. He is the first dog I have ever had that did this so I am uncertain of my approach, but I will continue on with the counter conditioning and hope I am getting it right.

 

Thx again.

[Shetlander]

Good point Sluj about the possibility of another fear period. I think 10 months can be a tricky age as dogs are maturing. I've seen some problematic behaviors develop around that point. I think you are wise to want to nip this in the bud before it becomes something worse. This is an excellent time to be working on good manners. I'm all for dogs letting me know if they think something needs announcing, but I want them to then understand they can relax if I tell them all is well. In short, I do not want my dogs thinking they get to say who can or can not approach me in peace. While people often say "dogs know who can be trusted," that just hasn't been my experience with most dogs I've known. I've had a couple dogs who would have snuggled with Osama Bin Laden while he did one of his threatening tapes and a couple dogs that would have seen evil Mother Theresa. Quinn likes most people he meets, but sometimes takes exception to those wearing hats -- not something I personally find dangerous.

 

I don't know your dog, but my guess would be you are not stifling his anxieties for them to burst out worse at some later time. I'd say you are training and reinforcing an alternative behavior and helping him feel more secure and that you are in charge. A book I've found really helpful is Click to Calm by Emma Parsons. Within a couple of walks, my Sheltie went from shrieking at dogs, children, people on bikes, cats, etc. to prancing silently at my side so prettily that I will get compliments from folks we pass by. As the behavior becomes more entrenched, I think Colt will become better and better at ignoring triggers. Probably he will automatically offer the behavior without a cue from you. My Sheltie loves to see dogs, children, people on bikes, cats, etc. now because she knows there is a chance she might earn a piece of kibble for looking at me instead. The only thing she barks at anymore are dogs that run up to her -- usually puppies or good natured, rowdy lab types.

 

Good luck. Keep up the training and let us know how it goes!

[flyer]

Good point Sluj about the possibility of another fear period. I think 10 months can be a tricky age as dogs are maturing. I've seen some problematic behaviors develop around that point. I think you are wise to want to nip this in the bud before it becomes something worse. This is an excellent time to be working on good manners. I'm all for dogs letting me know if they think something needs announcing, but I want them to then understand they can relax if I tell them all is well. In short, I do not want my dogs thinking they get to say who can or can not approach me in peace. While people often say "dogs know who can be trusted," that just hasn't been my experience with most dogs I've known. I've had a couple dogs who would have snuggled with Osama Bin Laden while he did one of his threatening tapes and a couple dogs that would have seen evil Mother Theresa. Quinn likes most people he meets, but sometimes takes exception to those wearing hats -- not something I personally find dangerous.

 

I don't know your dog, but my guess would be you are not stifling his anxieties for them to burst out worse at some later time. I'd say you are training and reinforcing an alternative behavior and helping him feel more secure and that you are in charge. A book I've found really helpful is Click to Calm by Emma Parsons. Within a couple of walks, my Sheltie went from shrieking at dogs, children, people on bikes, cats, etc. to prancing silently at my side so prettily that I will get compliments from folks we pass by. As the behavior becomes more entrenched, I think Colt will become better and better at ignoring triggers. Probably he will automatically offer the behavior without a cue from you. My Sheltie loves to see dogs, children, people on bikes, cats, etc. now because she knows there is a chance she might earn a piece of kibble for looking at me instead. The only thing she barks at anymore are dogs that run up to her -- usually puppies or good natured, rowdy lab types.

 

Good luck. Keep up the training and let us know how it goes!

 

Thank you, Liz. I appreciate your encouragement. Seems daunting some days. My pup who had the greatest chill button now becomes aroused very quickly and finds it harder to come down. He does have his testicles now. Would that be making the difference?

 

(My last dog would've have helped a burglar fill his bag!!)

[Shetlander]

Seems daunting some days. My pup who had the greatest chill button now becomes aroused very quickly and finds it harder to come down. He does have his testicles now. Would that be making the difference?

 

Maybe... I'm no expert and I've seen aggression develop in dogs that were neutered. On the other hand, I've never found testosterone to be helpful with canine behavior problems. But really, I'm sure there are several different answers to that question.

 

I understand feeling daunted. I had lots of those days trying to help my first Sheltie with his fearfulness. Just hang in there and remember there will be good days and bad days. With time, the good days should be the norm. And if this is more a phase than a temperament issue like my Sheltie's, then this may just be something to get through with consistency, socialization and training.

[flyer]

Maybe... I'm no expert and I've seen aggression develop in dogs that were neutered. On the other hand, I've never found testosterone to be helpful with canine behavior problems. But really, I'm sure there are several different answers to that question.

 

I understand feeling daunted. I had lots of those days trying to help my first Sheltie with his fearfulness. Just hang in there and remember there will be good days and bad days. With time, the good days should be the norm. And if this is more a phase than a temperament issue like my Sheltie's, then this may just be something to get through with consistency, socialization and training.

 

Here's hoping.

[flyer]

Well, this has been a challenging few weeks, but very rewarding. Oh, I want to clarify something. I reread my OP and it kind of sounds like I was unsure about stopping my pup from barking at people because I would then be shutting down his anxiety. No, no, no, I do not want him barking at folks. I was wanting to make sure that I was not shutting down an anxious dog by simply growling a hush up at him each time. I was looking to get to the root of the behavior and help him with that and just wasn't sure I was doing that in the right way having no experience with counter conditioning.

 

Anyway, there has been a lot of progress. First and foremost an unexpected reward has been our leash work. It has gone from adequate to very very good. Loose leash even under quite exciting times, whether on the six ft. or the long line. Having him on the leash so much has also given me a much better opportunity to see and feel what is going on inside my dog. I don't have a very scared dog on my hands. I have a somewhat anxious, but excited dog.

 

Now I said I didn't want to go through life with a ball in my hand. Well, I finished reading Pryor's "Reaching the Animal Mind" and in it she said a couple of things that I twigged to. Firstly she said that some animals are more toy oriented than food and so it is perfectly appropriate to use the toy. Secondly she mentioned that being asked to do behaviors the dog enjoys can be even more rewarding and instills a positive feeling in the midst of discomfort. I had instinctively used Colt's tricks when he was younger, i.e. spinning, rolling over and speaking to make people laugh and to make him feel good. I just couldn't get his attention now at 10 mos. So, because of the fact that there could be a motorcade approaching from behind and Colt wouldn't move a muscle if I have a ball or a frisbee in my hand I mixed the two. I use the ball which gets his attention and if I see he is at all uncertain of who is approaching I ask for a trick. If I do this I don't have a bark for the whole of our morning 8 K.

 

I have used the ball to teach new behavior not simply to distract, which I had done in the past.

 

So on our leashed walks Colt will he turn to me immediately when someone is approaching as he does unleashed with the ball. Then he will sit or lie down and accept food treats as they go by. He is still barking at some people, especially if they surprise us, but he is only 10 mos. old and I am very impressed with his level of try and self control.

 

Just though I'd update in case there were any other "newbie to barkers" out there struggling to help their dogs.

[Maralynn]

Glad to hear that you're making progress - keep up the good work!

[flyer]

Glad to hear that you're making progress - keep up the good work!

 

Thx Maralynn. I don't know any clicker trainers or anyone who has counter conditioned a dog personally, so cyber support is very much appreciated. I have a class coming up mid Oct. with one of Pryor's graduates. She's away right now. Of course by that time if all continues to go this well we should have this particular "issue" handled. Perhaps I'll sign up for the baby agility class she runs.

[flyer]

I am so impressed with my pup!!

 

We're out on the trail on our way home. We have about 3 K to the parking lot and the ball I've been using as a reward gets a split and sinks in the river. I'm later than usual on my walk so the office crowd will now be hitting the trails on their lunch breaks. Read lots of joggers and sandwich eaters, not many other dog folk or dogs. I think, leash Colt. Then I think well, we'll wait til we meet someone. His recall has been excellent these days.

 

My dog walked off leash through 3 kilometers of trails meeting said joggers and numerous office folk and what did he do when he saw someone? He flipped his head to me. I smiled, called him to me, sometimes with just a little pat of my thigh, asked him to "heel" and that pup pranced by every single person!! Without any barking!! Without a ball or a frisbee, or a clicker, or a treat. I only had three so used them on the first person.

 

Can I tell you how happy I am? How proud I am of my pup? How relieved I am that this could get done? I know it could all go to hell tomorrow, but today he was brilliant. And he was happy, too. He knew why I was praising and I think just kept going for it with each new passing stranger.

 

I am not a member of any dog community, although we will start agility soon to see if he likes it and I will take him to sheep again. I am simply a pet owner who has always had a dog and Colt is my first purebred BC. This board is a wonderful resource for people like me. I have read all the threads about anxious dogs and that is where I got the idea to buy CU, Pryor's books and McConnell's. I also took to heart what people have said about staying positive and not getting harsh with corrections.

 

I know we still have a long way to go and that things could slide, but I also know that it can be done, which is such a comfort and affirmation that we are on the right track.

[flyer]

2 months later and I wish to report that all is still well with Colt and approaching strangers.

 

Now that it is getting dark quickly at night I am walking him in the neighborhood after dark most nights before bed and I had to use the same techniques I used on the trail for the first three nights or so. He is on track now here too.

 

Deep down I think Colt is still unsure when meeting certain people out on walks, sometimes I notice he will tense, look back repeatedly for assurance, (he is completely different with people coming into the house, all body wags and smiles) but he has lost a great deal of anxiety around most folks out in the world and looks much more relaxed and confident. Rarely barks more than once if surprised, which I want to keep as we hike in remote areas sometimes.