Flanks and Gather

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Hi Bob! Glad you are here!

 

Ted's not quite three years and trained to Ranch/PN level - he's really ready for Open but I'm not.

 

Ted does the daily chores and takes the sheep out to graze with me. Lately, his eye has been developing nicely as I've been training him on small groups.

 

But I wasn't paying attention during chores and just realized that his flanks have been getting really bad. He's also been not really hunting sheep when I ask him to gather a field or even a smallish paddock. He takes the first set he sees and has to be re-directed to get the rest. I think these two things are related and possibly related to his eye increasing.

 

My sheep are BFL crosses, very dog savvy but not knee knockers - they make a dog work hard to move them and keep them together.

 

Thanks!

[RMSBORDERCOLLIES]

Hi Bob! Glad you are here!

 

Ted's not quite three years and trained to Ranch/PN level - he's really ready for Open but I'm not.

 

Ted does the daily chores and takes the sheep out to graze with me. Lately, his eye has been developing nicely as I've been training him on small groups.

 

But I wasn't paying attention during chores and just realized that his flanks have been getting really bad. He's also been not really hunting sheep when I ask him to gather a field or even a smallish paddock. He takes the first set he sees and has to be re-directed to get the rest. I think these two things are related and possibly related to his eye increasing.

 

My sheep are BFL crosses, very dog savvy but not knee knockers - they make a dog work hard to move them and keep them together.

 

Thanks!

 

Hi there. When you say his flanks are getting really bad, I take it he is slicing his flanks and moving the sheep while flanking. This is something that a lot of folks will do when doing actual work and yet, when training, they will concentrate on nice clean square flanks. Don't let your dog get sloppy when doing the chores or pasturing sheep. Your dog must be right ALL THE TIME and you need to make sure he/she is. Now that he has become a little sloppy with the flanks, you need to tune him up a bit. It won't take long as long if you are consistent and demanding. He is already trained to flank squarely so you just need to get a few sheep together (10 or 12) and train him on his flanks for a few minutes ( I mean a few minutes 5 or 6) every night. Ensure that every one of them is square and taken immediately. If he slices, let him know you are disappointed in him and make him do it right. If you think he is just ignoring you get more commanding with your voice and let him know you mean what you say. When he does do it right let him know in your own way. Everyone has their own way of praising a dog and, at three years old, I'm sure Ted will recognize your form of praise better than anything I can recommend. Quit on a good note each time out and don't drill!!! While your out there, at the end of your training session, take your sheep out for a walk with the dog bringing them to you for a good 30 or 40 seconds with you not saying a word. Make lots of turns and watch your dog to make sure he is balancing the sheep to you. Remember no words. If he needs ecouragement to keep walking into the sheep just give him a ssshhhhh every now and then. This will be the beginning of solving your gathering problem with him. You must remember that as we trial these great dogs we are forever telling them what to do. when to do it, and how to do it. Quite often you will see dogs in their P/N and early Open years that have lost their balance due to never being allowed to use it. If you do the walk about thing at the end of every training session you won't lose the balance. The other thing you can start doing is gathering your flock without saying anything to Ted. As you see him going to bring only one group of sheep run to another spot on the field and change the balance point so that he will move toward the others. If this doesn't do it tell him to "look" not "look back" but just "look" and then be patient and wait for him to figure out that he needs to get them all. This word to "look" will soon become a statement from you to him that he's goofed up and missed something. You can use any word you want but be sure it is short and sharp so he gets the point. Be patient and watch your dog work and think and have the confidence in him that he will figure it out. You will be learning to "read" him when you do this and it is just as important that you learn his method of communication with you as him learning your method of communication. It's surprising how much you learn about your dog just by watching him think and work. Try this for a while and get back to me with any further questions you may have. sincerely......Bob

 

One more thing before I go any further with this....We all have our own method of training and each dog is different and I want you to keep in mind that throughout the time that I will be answering your questions I will be sharing things that have worked for me. I am certainly open to any questions as to why I would do certain things so fire away. Most of the things I do, I have learned from others and through experience but some of the things I do have come frome quite a few sleepless nights trying to figure out a cure for some problem that has cropped up. One thing that I can say with a reasonable amount of confidence is that these dogs are very resiliant and also very wise and a few things tried and failed will not harm them. The one thing we must not do is to keep doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result. If you see something that definitely isn't working find another way and don't be afraid to try it. None of us knows it all and a little bit of ingenuity will go a long way to make a better handler and trainer out of you so you can give your dog a better life with you. Bob

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Thanks Bob!

 

I had much the same advice on his flanks, at my lesson Sat. So I've been scolding him a bit when he starts cutting in to leave some. However, I think my timing's wrong as he's not taking it quite right. My guess would be I'm fussing at him too late, since the result is that he's throwing himself off and trying to flank all the way around the ones he's "got," and behind me, and THEN get the ones he left.

 

 

So my apologies for a REALLY stupid question. Let's say he's bringing the sheep and they are spreading and he gets "past" a set (not physically yet but I can see they are out of contact and dropping back).

 

I fuss and he stops. By this time, they are either on his shoulder or maybe even behind him. Now what do I do?

 

From the get go, I've used a "look back" to gather these. He has one heck of a look back now, as a result. But, as you can imagine, he now thinks it's okay to leave some as he'll just be sent back after the rest. Yay! More gathering! What fun! Obviously, I've figured out now that this was a mistake.

 

Last week, I actually did start using "See sheep?" to tell him there are sheep back there and I want them ALL. My instructor helped improve my cues to show him where the sheep were, on Saturday and he's much improved in that respect. So when he left some, I started trying saying "Do you SEE?" ("Do you" is kind of his "pay attention" correction). Okay, that worked for a bit but then he started coming up with this throwing himself off thing. Ack.

 

So then I had the bright idea that I was not following the correction with a command that reminded him of what we were doing. So I would correct him then say "Walk up!" really happy. That produced a stop, then simply picking up where he left off. Okay, I probably could have predicted that if I had thought about that (stop giggling, y'all).

 

So now I have one more idea, but I'm hoping you are not totally confused and can give me a specific approach to the above scenario.

 

Meanwhile, I totally agree that Ted needs more simple gathering/wearing. We've been doing a TON of driving (on trails), and holding sheep on grazes, which is kind of like driving too, and then fine tuning his obedience for those trials I may get to someday.

 

I really appreciate your time!

[RMSBORDERCOLLIES]

Thanks Bob!

 

I had much the same advice on his flanks, at my lesson Sat. So I've been scolding him a bit when he starts cutting in to leave some. However, I think my timing's wrong as he's not taking it quite right. My guess would be I'm fussing at him too late, since the result is that he's throwing himself off and trying to flank all the way around the ones he's "got," and behind me, and THEN get the ones he left.

 

 

So my apologies for a REALLY stupid question. Let's say he's bringing the sheep and they are spreading and he gets "past" a set (not physically yet but I can see they are out of contact and dropping back).

 

I fuss and he stops. By this time, they are either on his shoulder or maybe even behind him. Now what do I do?

 

From the get go, I've used a "look back" to gather these. He has one heck of a look back now, as a result. But, as you can imagine, he now thinks it's okay to leave some as he'll just be sent back after the rest. Yay! More gathering! What fun! Obviously, I've figured out now that this was a mistake.

 

Last week, I actually did start using "See sheep?" to tell him there are sheep back there and I want them ALL. My instructor helped improve my cues to show him where the sheep were, on Saturday and he's much improved in that respect. So when he left some, I started trying saying "Do you SEE?" ("Do you" is kind of his "pay attention" correction). Okay, that worked for a bit but then he started coming up with this throwing himself off thing. Ack.

 

So then I had the bright idea that I was not following the correction with a command that reminded him of what we were doing. So I would correct him then say "Walk up!" really happy. That produced a stop, then simply picking up where he left off. Okay, I probably could have predicted that if I had thought about that (stop giggling, y'all).

 

So now I have one more idea, but I'm hoping you are not totally confused and can give me a specific approach to the above scenario.

 

Meanwhile, I totally agree that Ted needs more simple gathering/wearing. We've been doing a TON of driving (on trails), and holding sheep on grazes, which is kind of like driving too, and then fine tuning his obedience for those trials I may get to someday.

 

I really appreciate your time!

 

 

Ok, let's get back to what I was saying before about letting him think. When he starts to pass sheep that he is fetching he is not paying attention to his work. He needs to be corrected verbally with whatever you use. Personally I tell the dog in a very agitated voice (this is the most important, not the words) "hey, you look" which means "you screwed up, get the rest". Set this up in the field with about 15 to 20 sheep spread around the field. the smaller the field the better right now. You can move out further later on. Send Ted on his outrun to gather the sheep and be quiet with no commands other than what you need for him to keep putting pressure on the sheep to bring them. Every time he misses sheep, you yell at him (in your agitated voice), "hey, you look" or something like that. Make sure he knows you're angry. Now you don't give him any more help than that. You stand and watch to see if he starts to think about what he is doing. If he looks at the other sheep ssshhh him, no words, and then wait for him to go and get them. He needs to start thinking about what he is suposed to do, not just running around doing just anything. Be patient. This isn't going to happen overnight. The next dog you train start doing this right from the get go and you won't have to do it later. Always make him bring them all. If he just keeps getting confused more about what it is you want you will have to go and show him by going out to him and saying look and wait for him to look at the other sheep and send him for them and get back to where you were before so he can bring them all. Make sure he is looking at the sheep before you send him for them. You'll just confuse him more if he isn't looking in the right direction before you send him. Try that for a while and get back to me when you start to get some success and we'll go on a little further with it. Bob

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Okay, that makes sense. We'll see how it goes!