Discriminations

[Root Beer]

What is your method of choice for teaching discriminations.

 

I've fudged it with Maddie pretty much. I am pretty much always ahead of her before we get to a discrimination (or we are together) so I hold out my hand and say "touch!". She does not actually touch my hand, that just gets her focus onto my hand, and then I very deliberately gesture to the piece that I want her to take while calling out it's name.

 

For her that works because she is never ahead of me.

 

But Dean will get ahead and right now he thinks that discriminations are "doggie's choice" no matter what I gesture toward or call out the name of!!!

 

With his anxiety issues, this has been the least of my concerns - if he's happy and confident out there, I don't care how many wrong pieces he takes.

 

But, I'd like to start working on this with him in situations that are comfortable for him, and I'm starting to consider my options on training this.

 

So, what has worked for you? What hasn't worked?

[in2adventure]

When at home training, I use a threadle to "pull" the dog towards me for the closer object and run straight with my hand/palm up as if to push them out. Sometimes running at a slight angle towards the discrimination helps to push them "out". If ahead of the dog, and have time, I use Susan G's one jump method of switching directions. Hold up the left arm while turning right or right arm and turning left. The dog should take the obstical on the side you are directing them.

 

This only works for a dog that has a good grasp on directional signals though. When in a trial, I reinforce it with a vebal cue for the obstical I want taken. If you use minimal to no voice commands in practice, the dog gets better faster when learning to read your body language. This also helps with NOT reinforcing the wrong object. IE: if you have a tunnel sucker, you don't want to repeatedly yell "walk it" when trying to get them to do the dog walk and all they keep taking the tunnel. Over a period of time, they may start to associate the tunnel with "walk it".

 

I hope this helps. I'm not sure if it's all worded right.

[Jumpin Boots]

Since Boots is my first agility dog discriminations had been very difficult for us until about a year ago. I had tried teaching an 'out' command which works great for layering and jumps, but was never consistant w/ discriminations. Then about a year ago my boyfriend was out watching us practice and me getting frusturated with our 60% success rate, he ask why I didn't try using directionals. So I tried it and since then we hae been 100% at trials and about 95% at home or practice. So if I want the obstacle on the far side I use my directional (left or right) w/my outside arm coming up, and then the obstacle name. If I want the close obstacle I say here,do a slight RFP and then say the obstacle name. Basically by using th directional it changes his lead and that seems to set him up for taking the outside obstacle.

 

With Renoir I have begun teaching discrimintions using the gate method, which so far I am very pleased with, but I am still working on th flat w/ just a jump and tunnel so am not sure how it will go once I add in a contact obstacle.

[Root Beer]

When at home training, I use a threadle to "pull" the dog towards me for the closer object and run straight with my hand/palm up as if to push them out. Sometimes running at a slight angle towards the discrimination helps to push them "out". If ahead of the dog, and have time, I use Susan G's one jump method of switching directions. Hold up the left arm while turning right or right arm and turning left. The dog should take the obstical on the side you are directing them.

 

This only works for a dog that has a good grasp on directional signals though. When in a trial, I reinforce it with a vebal cue for the obstical I want taken. If you use minimal to no voice commands in practice, the dog gets better faster when learning to read your body language. This also helps with NOT reinforcing the wrong object. IE: if you have a tunnel sucker, you don't want to repeatedly yell "walk it" when trying to get them to do the dog walk and all they keep taking the tunnel. Over a period of time, they may start to associate the tunnel with "walk it".

 

I hope this helps. I'm not sure if it's all worded right.

 

Do you think a verbal is more important for a dog who will be out ahead most of the time?

[Root Beer]

If I want the close obstacle I say here,do a slight RFP and then say the obstacle name. Basically by using th directional it changes his lead and that seems to set him up for taking the outside obstacle.

 

Lately our instructor has really been emphasizing doing work to teach the dog that an arm out means to move away to take something and an arm close to the body means to move in toward the handler. From what you describe, it sounds like the arm in to the body is operating like the RFP.

 

This is working beautifully with Maddie, who is always near me. But it is one of those things that I don't really understand how it will operate when the dog is 10 or 20 feet out ahead!!

 

Do you typically cue discriminiations from waaaaay behind your dog? And does this still work?

 

And what's the gate method?

[in2adventure]

Lucia is very rarely so far ahead that I need a voice command for anything other than reinforcement, so I'm not sure what to tell you. As Grady starts to get to that level, I'll let you know how it goes . I would think that unless you are directly behind the dog, they should be able to see your body changes. they have WAY better perif. vision than we do. I still very rarely use obstical cues. They are mostly directional cues such as HERE, OUT, GO.

 

I also wanted to mention, turning into your dog with the opposite hand up is giving mixed signals. Turning into them tells them to come to you and putting the hand up is telling them to go away. This may cause the dog to pull off, say a dog walk, early because they aren't sure what you really want. If the dog is running TOWARD you this works to change their direction, but if they are running ahead of you or along with you, it will cause problems.

[Root Beer]

I also wanted to mention, turning into your dog with the opposite hand up is giving mixed signals. Turning into them tells them to come to you and putting the hand up is telling them to go away. This may cause the dog to pull off, say a dog walk, early because they aren't sure what you really want. If the dog is running TOWARD you this works to change their direction, but if they are running ahead of you or along with you, it will cause problems.

 

Do you mean when I use the hand "touch" thing. That's always the dog side hand, and Maddie is always behind me when I use it. She reads it very clearly and it is actually the only way I've ever been able to get her to take a tunnel instead of a contact on a discrimination!! But I don't turn in to her when I do that.

 

Or do you mean the arm out/arm in thing? That's always the dog side arm and I don't turn in to the dog to use it. Both of my dogs actually read this very well and when I use it correctly, it doesn't pull them off of things.

[agilityrunningdogs]

I can say that directionals help immensely. One of the problems I have with APHS is that you always have to be in front of her dog. On her forum, somebody asked Mecklenberg how to do a specific course since he couldn't get ahead and the answer was "run faster". But I digress, teaching left and right is key in my opinion when you have a fast dog. There is no way on earth I am ever going to beat Maelstrom on a straitaway, so having him work confidently ahead of me with excellent rear steering is the only way we are going to be successful. It's an easy foundation skill to teach, and something that you can practice anywhere (warming up to go in the ring).

[in2adventure]

Do you mean when I use the hand "touch" thing. That's always the dog side hand, and Maddie is always behind me when I use it. She reads it very clearly and it is actually the only way I've ever been able to get her to take a tunnel instead of a contact on a discrimination!! But I don't turn in to her when I do that.

 

Or do you mean the arm out/arm in thing? That's always the dog side arm and I don't turn in to the dog to use it. Both of my dogs actually read this very well and when I use it correctly, it doesn't pull them off of things.

 

I'm sorry, I should have been clearer. What you are doing is not confusing. I was refering to one of the other posters. Basically what she/he was doing was a RFP with their arm up instead of low and if you are trying to make a dog go out, it may seem very confusing to them.

[Jumpin Boots]

Lately our instructor has really been emphasizing doing work to teach the dog that an arm out means to move away to take something and an arm close to the body means to move in toward the handler. From what you describe, it sounds like the arm in to the body is operating like the RFP.

 

This is working beautifully with Maddie, who is always near me. But it is one of those things that I don't really understand how it will operate when the dog is 10 or 20 feet out ahead!!

 

Do you typically cue discriminiations from waaaaay behind your dog? And does this still work?

 

And what's the gate method?

 

Yes, when working the close obstacle my arm signal is basically an RFP. So far I have had success w/ this regardless of whether I am ahead, beside, or behind Boots. We run NADAC elite chances so are typically 15-20 feet away from each other and yes I'm still having success using this mehtod. I too have trained Boots that an extended arm means to move laterally away, if I use a push with the arm it means to go further, if I hold my arm it means to hold the distance and if I drop my arm it means to come in close to me. While these signals work well w/ our jumping/tunnels and the like for some reason it didn't cross over discriminations. Using the directional with the outside arm for the obstacle away from from me also seems to work regardless of where I am. I'm not sure how exactly Boots is able to sense what is going on behind him, or if he's just working more on verbal than physical commands. Maybe I'll try to go out today and do test w/ no voice/hands only and no hands/voice only from behind and seewhat happens...I'll keep you posted.

 

On a side note; you're talking about being behind Dean. I find that while there are times I'm behind my guys (Boots who has moderate speed and Renoir who is very quick); I have altered my handling style so instead of running the same course they do I work on a lot of lateral distance work. I do quite a bit of layering w/Boots which allows meto take the needed short cuts to catch up to him or even get ahead.

 

Gates: So O know a lot of people don't like using prop, I never did them with Boots but wanted to start Renoir differently. I used gates for teaching Renoir contacts and it worked great so as I said before we are only part wy through the discrimination work with gates so fr I am pretty happy. The gates I use are a plastic piece of mesh garden fence, three feet high by 4 feet then I just make a pvc frame to zip-tie the plastic fencing into.

1. No equipment, just the gate. I start next to the dog and have them walk on the other side of the gate then treat as we are on opposite sides.

2. Then I begin playing around w/ starting the dog on the away side but moving my position laterally away, this is when I add in arm an voice command.

3. Then I begin moving the dog closer to me and expecting the dog to go out and around the gate.

4. Next I add an obstacle (like a jump or tunnel) to the far side, the gate is positioned ahead of the obstacle.

5. This is when I started taeching the here w/ an RFP to call the dog on the near side of the gate. Again I am moving my position as well as the dogs position all over the place so the dog is really having to think about what I want.

6. Then I add another obstacle (another jump or tunnel) onto the near side of the gate. This is where I am w/ Renoir now.

7. Now my plan is to begin phasing the gate away.

8. Then my plan is to take the gate to the typical discrimination set-up. And as we have success I will phase the gate out again.

 

This is based off of Amanda Nelson's techniques, although I have altered some parts. Hope it makes sense sorry for the mini novel.

[Northof49]

are you talking about just directionals or are you talking about actual obstacle discrimination - so that when you name an obstacle the dog knows which one you are talking about?

[agilityrunningdogs]

If you are talking to me...

 

I am talking about directionals to aid in discriminating. When the dog is ahead of me and I say "Left tunnel", I want him to turn to his left and take the tunnel, whereas if the discrimination was a curved tunnel with both openings facing the dog, just saying "Tunnel" is only a 50/50 shot, but "Left tunnel" tells him exactly which opening to take.

[Jumpin Boots]

I'm sorry, I should have been clearer. What you are doing is not confusing. I was refering to one of the other posters. Basically what she/he was doing was a RFP with their arm up instead of low and if you are trying to make a dog go out, it may seem very confusing to them.

 

So that must be me and sorry I must not have typed what I meant well. When I RFP for the near obstacle my hands are to the inside very close to my body and the movement is a very small RFP, this all happens prior to the dog hitting the near obstacle, once they are on that obstacle I am just running.

 

My outside arm comes up for the ouside obstacle. i.e. If I am approaching a discrimination w/ the tunnel on the left side of a contact and my dog is on my left side and I want him to take the tunnel I am going to say left w/ my right arm coming up and the say tunnel. This is where my directional comes in. If you have taught your dog directionals w/ your near hand obviously this wouldn't work. You also have to have very solid directionals for this to work.

 

With our success rate and our flow during discriminations I would say that this is not confusing nor am I pulling my dog off of any obstacles.

 

I definately agree about not talking while on course a bunch. I use obstacle names when reinforcing discriminations, but otherwise rely mainly on directions, go,etc.

 

Julie

[MickeyDogs]

Oscar worked quite a distance ahead of me and we had simple communication (I'm a great fan of the KISS method of training ). "Get" meant move away from me; "here" meant come toward me; "go" meant go ahead of me. I also taught him obstacle names. Then my boby language cued him, even if he was ahead of me. A pulled in shoulder pulled him in; an open shoulder pushed him out. An extended arm pushed him out; a hand pointing toward my feet pulled him in.

 

So, "get, jump" with an extended arm meant move away from me and take that jump; "here, teeter" with a pulled in shoulder meant come toward me and take the teeter. All this even if he was ahead of me. So if I wanted him to take the left end of a u-shaped tunnel and he was on my right side, I would pull my right shoulder in, and say "here, tunnel". Of course, my timing had to be spot on.

 

Using left and right as commands was just coming into vogue when I was competing with Oscar but I knew I never would be able to think fast enough to get the right directional when I needed it! (I still have that problem but now it's on the sheepdog trial field )

 

We competed in AKC and this method worked well for us and we were quite successful (and had a lot of fun!) during our agility career. Ah, those were the days!

[Root Beer]

are you talking about just directionals or are you talking about actual obstacle discrimination - so that when you name an obstacle the dog knows which one you are talking about?

 

I mean discriminations. Chiefly, tunnel and contact are smack next to each other.

 

And, I don't think I clarified this in the beginning, but I guess I mean discriminations when the dog is out ahead of the handler. If the dog is with me or behind, I know a few tricks (like the "touch" thing).

 

Using a directional for this would not work for me - this is specific to me, not a general thing. I mix up my left and right 50% of the time. It's something in my brain. Sometimes I triple check and still get it wrong. So, I don't use directionals in Agility at all. It would do more harm than good because about half the time I would send my dog the wrong way!!

 

I know that body language is crucial and that the dog can somehow read it to some extent when ahead. Still, it seems to me that some kind of verbal is in order.

 

So, I'm wavering between teaching an "out"/"here" type thing or actually relying on "tunnel" or "walk"/"scramble" type thing.

 

What I'm really interested in, though, is the training process itself, not so much the end result handling and cues.

 

For instance, I read somewhere that it can actually be helpful, when training discriminations, to use a different reward for each piece. So, maybe chicken for the tunnel and beef for the dogwalk. This is in the early stages of training the differentiation, not something that would be needed once the concept is fluent for the dog.

 

I've also read about teaching a send - not even to pieces of Agility equipment, but maybe to a box and a hoop or something - and teaching the dog to go to each one on the correct cue (and of course change the placement of each item once the dog knows the exercise)

 

Of course, I could try both of those things relatively easily, but I wonder anyone has done such things with success, and if anyone knows of any other exercises like that which might be effective.

[Root Beer]

Gates: So O know a lot of people don't like using prop, I never did them with Boots but wanted to start Renoir differently.

 

I love props and have no hesitation to use them in the early stages of training if the dog enjoys working with them.

 

A lot of times they provide shortcuts, for both handler and dog, that make the training process simpler and, sometimes clearer and more effective.

 

I've never had an issue with getting rid of them once the behavior is fluent. Kind of like how my Dad just took the training wheels off my bike one day and I could ride it just fine after a period of time riding it with those wheels on.

 

I used gates for teaching Renoir contacts and it worked great so as I said before we are only part wy through the discrimination work with gates so fr I am pretty happy. The gates I use are a plastic piece of mesh garden fence, three feet high by 4 feet then I just make a pvc frame to zip-tie the plastic fencing into.

 

OK, that sounds do-able.

 

1. No equipment, just the gate. I start next to the dog and have them walk on the other side of the gate then treat as we are on opposite sides.

 

2. Then I begin playing around w/ starting the dog on the away side but moving my position laterally away, this is when I add in arm an voice command.

 

3. Then I begin moving the dog closer to me and expecting the dog to go out and around the gate.

 

I've done this with a post to teach several skills, so that would be very familiar.

 

4. Next I add an obstacle (like a jump or tunnel) to the far side, the gate is positioned ahead of the obstacle.

 

5. This is when I started taeching the here w/ an RFP to call the dog on the near side of the gate. Again I am moving my position as well as the dogs position all over the place so the dog is really having to think about what I want.

 

So, do you mean that sometimes you ask the dog to take the equipment (which is on the far side of the gate) and sometimes you cue him to come into you and bypass the equipment?

 

If so, that makes sense. I could do that with the "arm out"/"arm in" technique just as easily, so that would transfer nicely for us.

 

6. Then I add another obstacle (another jump or tunnel) onto the near side of the gate. This is where I am w/ Renoir now.

 

And so at this point, sometimes you cue the far piece and sometimes you cue the nearer one? And do you switch them from time to time?

 

This might even be good to do with two identical pieces - like two jumps - because it seems like the method teaches the dog to take "near piece" or "far piece".

 

If that's what you mean, got it!!

 

 

7. Now my plan is to begin phasing the gate away.

 

8. Then my plan is to take the gate to the typical discrimination set-up. And as we have success I will phase the gate out again.

 

Simple enough!

 

This is based off of Amanda Nelson's techniques, although I have altered some parts. Hope it makes sense sorry for the mini novel.

 

Thanks for sharing that. It's definitely worth consideration, and something I can do right in my yard. I might play around with it a bit.

[Jumpin Boots]

I've never had an issue with getting rid of them once the behavior is fluent. Kind of like how my Dad just took the training wheels off my bike one day and I could ride it just fine after a period of time riding it with those wheels on.

 

I agree, Ive had no issues w/ removing props.

 

So, do you mean that sometimes you ask the dog to take the equipment (which is on the far side of the gate) and sometimes you cue him to come into you and bypass the equipment?

 

If so, that makes sense. I could do that with the "arm out"/"arm in" technique just as easily, so that would transfer nicely for us.

 

Yep, that's exactly what I mean.

 

And so at this point, sometimes you cue the far piece and sometimes you cue the nearer one? And do you switch them from time to time?

 

This might even be good to do with two identical pieces - like two jumps - because it seems like the method teaches the dog to take "near piece" or "far piece".

 

Exactly. I switch them all the time and I make sure to always work both sides, ie out and here from both my left and right side.

 

Just yesterday we were working with two tunnels, oh gosh what fun.

 

Bst of luck, keep us posted on how things go.