Sheep training

[Nancy Bovee]

Hi, this is a little more than just livestock management. I have some new sheep (4) to work in a small area (two adjacent 50x50 yard corrals). The sheep are just slightly too flighty for what I'm doing, so I want to keep them out of the corners, but I don't want them just automatically coming to me and settling since the place is so small. I know some people are geniuses at keeping sheep with good working heads so I'd appreciate any advice. The three old sheep there are horrible and just stand, run to corners or fall over so I just use them as draws.

[Debbie Meier]

I'm probably going to get blasted for this but, making sure that the dog is really releasing pressure and not slicing or accelerating the sheep while working his way around them on a flank is the best I could ask for and usually relaxes and settles the sheep keeping them calm.

 

IMO, while working in small spaces it's really important that your dog is committed to a correct flank and not trying to create motion while flanking by dropping his shoulder, two tracking around the sheep or eyeing up while flanking. I really watch when the dog gets into places where the sheep are close to the fence, the dog should be slowing down and easing in allowing the sheep to float off the fence which gives the dog space to flank through, I've had mine even lean into the fence and go as far as looking a little out trying to release enough to get around on their flank. This is especially true in corners, my dog should be leaning out toward the fence patiently waiting for the sheep to lift out of the corner, not leaning in holding them into the corner, if he is along the fence with the sheep in the corner he should actually face the fence before easing up it when I give him a flank command not go straight to the sheep right up the fence, if I have to I can use little flanks and stops until the sheep give ground and move out of the corner. If the dog is doing it properly the sheep should just float out of the corner and settle off the fence, which would allow you to set a fetch or drive line right out of the corner. If the sheep run down the fence then the dog may have scooped them out and then went back to holding them to the fence rather then staying on his flank.

 

I also make sure I don't do alot of fetching with the sheep, otherwise they would start running to me as soon as they feel the pressure of the dog leaving me, you can fetch them but balance it with drives to and from anywhere. I've even watched them and if I see them cheating toward me stop my dog's outrun and then ask him to drive the sheep from the location I stopped him, I especially have to do that after someone was here practicing their fetching. I hope that made sense, it's how I'm handling it, btw, for the most part my sheep are just sauntering off the pressure of the dog not exploding.

 

Most of my working areas are 150' x 150' or smaller some square some oval when I don't have open field access, I use barbado and barbado crosses. I can keep them nice and calm and they don't camp into corners until someone comes with a dog that pushes on their flanks or tries to trap them. As soon as a pushy dog goes to work them they get bouncing around, running toward the handler or hiding in corners. The last person trying to work them asked when they would stop running, all I could say was "When your dog stops chasing them".

 

BTW, I have sheep that I don't let others use when I know their dogs are going to push, slice and go into auto fetch, with no interest in getting the dogs to change, it's too hard to keep sheep honest so I just keep cleaning up the old ones that have already been through the program and keep the fresh ones for myself. I know some people are against reschooling the sheep but if I was to replace my sheep everytime they started learning tricks from being handled incorrectly I'd have had to replace my flock a couple times over. I have some people that come here to work dogs just because I have some sheep that are easy to work around, but then others that I don't let come because their dogs will turn the sheep into fence line ornaments, it's all about how the dog handles them and how you allow your dog to handle them.

 

Deb

[Lenajo]

These old sheep with the bad habits...did you train them to do that? or did someone else?

 

Rehabbing spoilt sheep, and training new ones to last a lifetime is very similar. The first priority is not to let the dogs abuse them. this means limiting unfair gripping, no working them until they are heaving for air day in/day out, and if they do bolt from the group and the dog covers that great...but no allowing them to be chased back to the flock with the dog hot on their heels.

 

The sheep, like the dog, must always have a place to be safe from pressure.

 

If you teach them that the safe place is you though panic and fear, you get pita knee knockers or sullers. If you moderate that you can get the mild but still responsive versions of that - which is a *little* necessary if you use them for lots of beginners. If you teach them it's responding to the dog is where pressure relaxes then you get relaxed, compliant sheep wherever they are taken or set, as well as used at your feet for beginners.

 

When I get spoilt sheep to retrain I spend a lot of time driving them - past me, around me, down the field, back again. They get off my legs that way and learn that safety is quiet response to a dog. If they are bolters (that the minute they get off my knees they head for the hills) then I drive big circles, loops, and squares around me until they relax with the idea that they don't have to be on top of me to be controlled by a dog.

 

Personally a lot of this is why I prefer starting dogs out in the field. Sheep get dull is when they have dogs inside the flight zone all the time with no relief. In a pen that's almost always the case.

[Nancy Bovee]

These old sheep with the bad habits...did you train them to do that? or did someone else?

 

These sheep are 14 years old!!!! They had their bad habits before I even knew about herding.

 

I think I have a difficult project. The four new sheep are working pretty nicely now, but they are in small corrals and we have no open field to use. Actually, I knew them as wild weanlings when they lived out in a huge field and learned some really nasty antelope habits. And taught my pup bad habits, too.

 

I try to split them up and drive them as well as I can in the small space.

 

Nancy

[btrent]

Hi Nancy,

 

Can you take out some of the fencing to turn the two small corrals into one slightly larger one?

 

just a thought,

 

--Billy

[Nancy Bovee]

Hi Billy! How is your truck? No, I can't take down the fence (it isn't my place) but I might be able to add at least one gate on the side (the current gate is in the middle) which would let the dog take an outrun all the way back.

 

I couldn't work in this place before because the sheep were so sour and now I have an oppoturnity to work more often so I don't want to ruin these sheep also.

 

Hi Nancy,

 

Can you take out some of the fencing to turn the two small corrals into one slightly larger one?

 

just a thought,

 

--Billy

[btrent]

The truck is fixed; I am $900 poorer. Such is life!

 

If you can add a gate it would at least give you one more option. It's still a very small space to try to accomplish anything.

 

Round off the corners with pallets or something if you need to keep the sheep out of the corners. And put away the old sour sheep if you aren't already.

 

good luck

 

--Billy

 

Hi Billy! How is your truck? No, I can't take down the fence (it isn't my place) but I might be able to add at least one gate on the side (the current gate is in the middle) which would let the dog take an outrun all the way back.

 

I couldn't work in this place before because the sheep were so sour and now I have an oppoturnity to work more often so I don't want to ruin these sheep also.

 

Hi Nancy,

 

Can you take out some of the fencing to turn the two small corrals into one slightly larger one?

 

just a thought,

 

--Billy

[PennyT]

"The three old sheep there are horrible and just stand, run to corners or fall over so I just use them as draws."

 

This sounds as if the three original sheep are loose in the same pen you use with the new sheep. Is that the case? If so, use pallets or cut wire panels to make a pen for them while you work the others. Otherwise, you're teaching your dog to leave sheep behind.

 

I will be interested to hear if 14 year old sheep are retrainable, particularly if you can get them to stand in the open long enough for the dog to get around far enough to learn to be correct in back on sheep that don't take off early. Retraining for the lifetime of a 14 year old sheep is not all that long.

 

Penny

[Nancy Bovee]

I think I might be making a little headway. Actually, there are two corrals connected by a gate in the center with another long narrow corral in the back. Each corral has a stall so I can put the old sheep in one or several of these. My older dog who is intense and tends to blow up has an injured toe, so I've been taking him into a stall with the three old sheep and we are learning to just walk around them or just relax in the stall. It's weird how he only gets 'buzzy' on the come-by side - even in a stall! But he and the sheep are gradually learning it's not freaky and almost boring to be moved just slighty around the stall. I haven't really worked the old ones otherwise except to let them out to go through the center gate because the young workable four just DON'T want to go through the center gate alone and I don't want to train them that they can break apart and back (which is what they've tried). I'll certainly let you know if I have any success!

 

Nancy

"The three old sheep there are horrible and just stand, run to corners or fall over so I just use them as draws."

 

This sounds as if the three original sheep are loose in the same pen you use with the new sheep. Is that the case? If so, use pallets or cut wire panels to make a pen for them while you work the others. Otherwise, you're teaching your dog to leave sheep behind.

 

I will be interested to hear if 14 year old sheep are retrainable, particularly if you can get them to stand in the open long enough for the dog to get around far enough to learn to be correct in back on sheep that don't take off early. Retraining for the lifetime of a 14 year old sheep is not all that long.

 

Penny