Much Easier Training Question for Pan!

[pansmom]

So I know this is a common question because I see other dogs do it ALL THE TIME. In their yard as Pan and I cycle by. At apartment windows. Dogs are territorial. It's like the most common form of dog aggression right?

 

Pan hates it when other dogs come into her yard. HATE HATE HATES IT. She jumps up and barks all frenzied like through the windows and if a cat is nearby she will DEFINITELY redirect... She did it to poor Nyxie this afternoon (the tiny cat we have, who is about Pan's age). Thankfully I had the presence of mind to remember that aggressing on poor Nyxie means she wants to leave the room so that's what we did, I said to her. "NO Pan, outside? Want to go outside?" And we left and she sat out in the hall thinking, I presume about why I thought she wanted to leave (you can tell when she's thinking because she scratches herself, yes, it's stereotypical, but she really does scratch herself when she's thinking.) Anyway the last time she bit me, 3-4 weeks ago, whatever it was, was a dog-outside-window-redirect, so this is an important question not just for the safety and well being of my 8 pound tiny fluffy rescue kitty. When Pan sees another dog in her yard she just gets so over threshold she doesn't know what she's doing and so, whenever this was, 3-4 weeks ago, I had been told what you do in that situation is touch the dog on the back... so I approached her... um no. Not a good idea. (Now I think the best thing to do with Pan is to tell her "no, chill" from a distance, and then redirect her attention and get HER to move away from what's troubling her and work her. )

 

But anyway we have a lot of front windows. Right now we have the shades pulled down, but they are bamboo and somewhat see through. And I do like the light... But I know the general guideline is: remove the trigger, right? So I'm right to go buy those $5 paper stickie shades from Home Depot for all five of the front windows, yes? and then work on the problem later in some other controlled location?

 

Anybody have any ideas on how to manage and train her out of this if possible?

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

When Pan sees another dog in her yard she just gets so over threshold she doesn't know what she's doing and so, whenever this was, 3-4 weeks ago, I had been told what you do in that situation is touch the dog on the back... so I approached her... um no. Not a good idea. (Now I think the best thing to do with Pan is to tell her "no, chill" from a distance, and then redirect her attention and get HER to move away from what's troubling her and work her. )

 

But anyway we have a lot of front windows. Right now we have the shades pulled down, but they are bamboo and somewhat see through. And I do like the light... But I know the general guideline is: remove the trigger, right? So I'm right to go buy those $5 paper stickie shades from Home Depot for all five of the front windows, yes? and then work on the problem later in some other controlled location?

 

Anybody have any ideas on how to manage and train her out of this if possible?

 

Now, I don't know if this is 100% or not, but bc's tend to be a bit more "touchy" with certain things...have you ever ready the "Grizzly Bear" analogy? Seems to me, they'll be a higher risk of biting when over their threashold because of their sensitivities and will spook easier. No, not all bc's will be like this, but reactive dogs, yes. I've actually been bitten by Daisy in a very, very similar situation. I was home alone, someone came to the door (door bell is a trigger) dog is barking, I restrain her while talking to stranger (strangers are triggers), without even thinking about it I brought my hand from behind the dogs head forward and mid bark, she flicked her head in the direction of my hand and made contact. Now, this was clearly the wrong place at the wrong time for my hand and it spooked her and I got grazed mid bark. But still. I learned my lesson.

I would agree that redirecting or getting her attention from a distance and moving her away from the trigger would be a better option and YES put those stickies on the windows and work on the issue when YOU can control the situation 100%. At least you have the stickies....I could never seem to find them when I thought to go there, so I had to use a cardboard box....talk about "getto"!

I don't know if anyone has mentioned the book "Control Unleashed"? It might be worth while for you to look it up. There are a lot of useful "games" that will help Pan with her self control. I have done a couple of things for this situation. I've taught Daisy to "Watch me" which is very useful when I see the trigger first. But I think this is only the best for low triggers...like cats for us. If her focus is on me then she can do other things and forget about the cat. For very high triggers, like dogs walking in front of our house, I've used the "Look at that" game from the book I mentioned. I allow her to see the trigger, mark her looking at it with a "yes" or click (if I have the clicker on me), she immediately looks back to me for a treat once she hears her marker. I treat and praise. If she looks again, click/treat. I continue this until she either doesn't care anymore and remains focused on me or the dog passes. 9 times out of 10 she'll keep her focus on me before the dog has passed and when this happens, I get her to offer behaviours that she is good at under stress, sit, shake, target my hand etc. that are not compatible with barking at the other dog. I like doing this because the dog can look at what scares it instead of focusing on me and thinking in the back of her head "OHMYGODTHEREISSOMETHINGSCARYBEHINDME!!!!". I have found that she is much more relaxed when I am rewarding her for looking at the big scary dog.

It's also a lot easier if you can enlist a "bait dog" to walk past your house every day at the same time, a couple of times. This way you'll be prepared for the training session and you'll be able to manage it better. Even if you have to at first just shove extremely high value treats down her gullet so she's just to busy to bark, you are still associating the dog walking past with something she likes.

It's late, I hope I helped. Sorry if I rambled.

[pansmom]

Now, I don't know if this is 100% or not, but bc's tend to be a bit more "touchy" with certain things...have you ever ready the "Grizzly Bear" analogy? Seems to me, they'll be a higher risk of biting when over their threashold because of their sensitivities and will spook easier. No, not all bc's will be like this, but reactive dogs, yes. I've actually been bitten by Daisy in a very, very similar situation. I was home alone, someone came to the door (door bell is a trigger) dog is barking, I restrain her while talking to stranger (strangers are triggers), without even thinking about it I brought my hand from behind the dogs head forward and mid bark, she flicked her head in the direction of my hand and made contact. Now, this was clearly the wrong place at the wrong time for my hand and it spooked her and I got grazed mid bark. But still. I learned my lesson.

I would agree that redirecting or getting her attention from a distance and moving her away from the trigger would be a better option and YES put those stickies on the windows and work on the issue when YOU can control the situation 100%. At least you have the stickies....I could never seem to find them when I thought to go there, so I had to use a cardboard box....talk about "getto"!

I don't know if anyone has mentioned the book "Control Unleashed"? It might be worth while for you to look it up. There are a lot of useful "games" that will help Pan with her self control. I have done a couple of things for this situation. I've taught Daisy to "Watch me" which is very useful when I see the trigger first. But I think this is only the best for low triggers...like cats for us. If her focus is on me then she can do other things and forget about the cat. For very high triggers, like dogs walking in front of our house, I've used the "Look at that" game from the book I mentioned. I allow her to see the trigger, mark her looking at it with a "yes" or click (if I have the clicker on me), she immediately looks back to me for a treat once she hears her marker. I treat and praise. If she looks again, click/treat. I continue this until she either doesn't care anymore and remains focused on me or the dog passes. 9 times out of 10 she'll keep her focus on me before the dog has passed and when this happens, I get her to offer behaviours that she is good at under stress, sit, shake, target my hand etc. that are not compatible with barking at the other dog. I like doing this because the dog can look at what scares it instead of focusing on me and thinking in the back of her head "OHMYGODTHEREISSOMETHINGSCARYBEHINDME!!!!". I have found that she is much more relaxed when I am rewarding her for looking at the big scary dog.

It's also a lot easier if you can enlist a "bait dog" to walk past your house every day at the same time, a couple of times. This way you'll be prepared for the training session and you'll be able to manage it better. Even if you have to at first just shove extremely high value treats down her gullet so she's just to busy to bark, you are still associating the dog walking past with something she likes.

It's late, I hope I helped. Sorry if I rambled.

 

OK I haven't read CONTROL UNLEASHED yet but you are about the 1000th person to mention it so I will cave and cough up the 15 bucks. Especially now that I have that summer job lined up. Thanks for reminding me (and thanks to everyone else in the last thread who mentioned it as well).

[mbc1963]

When I first brought my dog home, he went absolutely nuts when anything passed by our front windows: human, dog, cat, squirrel... Oy. My front windows are only about 6' from the sidewalk, and I live up the street from a train station. Around commute time each afternoon, I was subjected to a 2 hour symphony of barking.

 

I wouldn't surprise any wound-up dog by touching him without first letting him see me so he's very clear that the touch has nothing to do wth the "invader" outside. Not sure mine would bite, but I wouldn't tempt fate.

 

Early on, I read a protocol about this barking in the house problem. I think it was Patricia McConnell's protocol. It involved sitting on my couch with a plate of tiny hot dog pieces, round about afternoon commute time. When the dog reacted strongly to something outside, I approached him with the lure of a treat and said "eeeenough." When the smell of the treat distracted him enough to make him stop barking, I marked the cease-bark with a "good job" and a treat. (I didn't use clickers, but that would probably work better.) After a couple weeks, Buddy definitely did understand what the word "enough" meant, and he was able to take his focus off whatever was outside enough to pause when asked.

 

Mind you, he's not perfect; when the barking stopped being completely annoying, I let the training go. Probably could have done a better job. Also, he still barks a lot when strangers come and when the bell rings (in real life or on a TV commercial). Ideally, I would have trained the same "enough" and a calm "sit" when strangers were at the door, but really... where do you find strangers to volunteer to come to the door just so you can teach your dog not to scare them?

 

Still, his barking at the window is now token, at best; his heart just isn't in it. The bizarre hyperreactive state he used to get in doesn't happen much at all, and he's easily lured from his window conquests with the promise of a game of squeaker or a kibble. Some of this has to do with the early training, and a lot of it just seems to reflect his getting used to the traffic that is normal in my area.

 

Mary

[2 Devils]

Sounds like with Pan's other issues she has displaced aggression.

 

Definitely read Controlled Unleashed. I would also really work on working her brain as much as possible. Buy a tricks book and start teaching everything you possibly can. This should help wear her out mentally. I think mental tiredness is way more important than physical tiredness. You still need to wear Pan out physically but work her brain too.

 

I have a dog with displaced aggression. She has learned to pick up something in her mouth 90% of the time. This stops her ability to go after the other dogs and bite one of them. I did not teach it so not sure how you would go about it but you may want to find a way to teach Pan to pick up a toy or something when she has the "need" to take her aggression out on something.

[pansmom]

When I first brought my dog home, he went absolutely nuts when anything passed by our front windows: human, dog, cat, squirrel... Oy. My front windows are only about 6' from the sidewalk, and I live up the street from a train station. Around commute time each afternoon, I was subjected to a 2 hour symphony of barking.

 

I wouldn't surprise any wound-up dog by touching him without first letting him see me so he's very clear that the touch has nothing to do wth the "invader" outside. Not sure mine would bite, but I wouldn't tempt fate.

 

Early on, I read a protocol about this barking in the house problem. I think it was Patricia McConnell's protocol. It involved sitting on my couch with a plate of tiny hot dog pieces, round about afternoon commute time. When the dog reacted strongly to something outside, I approached him with the lure of a treat and said "eeeenough." When the smell of the treat distracted him enough to make him stop barking, I marked the cease-bark with a "good job" and a treat. (I didn't use clickers, but that would probably work better.) After a couple weeks, Buddy definitely did understand what the word "enough" meant, and he was able to take his focus off whatever was outside enough to pause when asked.

 

Mind you, he's not perfect; when the barking stopped being completely annoying, I let the training go. Probably could have done a better job. Also, he still barks a lot when strangers come and when the bell rings (in real life or on a TV commercial). Ideally, I would have trained the same "enough" and a calm "sit" when strangers were at the door, but really... where do you find strangers to volunteer to come to the door just so you can teach your dog not to scare them?

 

Still, his barking at the window is now token, at best; his heart just isn't in it. The bizarre hyperreactive state he used to get in doesn't happen much at all, and he's easily lured from his window conquests with the promise of a game of squeaker or a kibble. Some of this has to do with the early training, and a lot of it just seems to reflect his getting used to the traffic that is normal in my area.

 

Mary

 

Ooooh, I like the "eeeeeeeeeenough."

There are two neighbors' dog to whom she does this specifically.

I'll start paying attention to see if they walk at a certain time each day

if not, I'll ask if they'll help by calling me first so I can try the hot dog thing-

I doubt they like hearing Pan bark at them insanely like this on their daily walks.

[pansmom]

Sounds like with Pan's other issues she has displaced aggression.

 

Definitely read Controlled Unleashed. I would also really work on working her brain as much as possible. Buy a tricks book and start teaching everything you possibly can. This should help wear her out mentally. I think mental tiredness is way more important than physical tiredness. You still need to wear Pan out physically but work her brain too.

 

I have a dog with displaced aggression. She has learned to pick up something in her mouth 90% of the time. This stops her ability to go after the other dogs and bite one of them. I did not teach it so not sure how you would go about it but you may want to find a way to teach Pan to pick up a toy or something when she has the "need" to take her aggression out on something.

 

Recommend a good, long tricks book? For REALLY smart dogs?

Pan learns tricks in like 1-5 repetitions, depending on the difficulty.

[Pippin's person]

I think Pat Miller's book "The Power of Positive Dog Training" is very nice and explains how to do a variety of exercises very well (it includes household manners type stuff as well as more canonical "tricks"--there are quite a few different kinds of tricks). A general book that you might find useful is Patricia McConnel's book "The Other End of the Leash"--it's not a tricks book but it's a great training resource. (And I'm so impressed with your dedication to working out a way to make Pan's life work with yours and your family's--seriously, not everyone who starts a thread with "I'm at my wit's end" ends up where you are.)

[pansmom]

I think Pat Miller's book "The Power of Positive Dog Training" is very nice and explains how to do a variety of exercises very well (it includes household manners type stuff as well as more canonical "tricks"--there are quite a few different kinds of tricks). A general book that you might find useful is Patricia McConnel's book "The Other End of the Leash"--it's not a tricks book but it's a great training resource. (And I'm so impressed with your dedication to working out a way to make Pan's life work with yours and your family's--seriously, not everyone who starts a thread with "I'm at my wit's end" ends up where you are.)

 

Oh, thanks. But wit's end only means you can't figure out, rationally, what to do anymore. It doesn't mean that you have lost your capacity to love. I am and always have been crazy about animals. And Pan I got when she was TINY. She wants to trust me. She loves me. And she is soooo smart. Emotionally, I REALLY want this to work. And I know there is a lot of power in thinking positive, when you're talking about an animal that basically mirrors what she can pick up of your feelings and thoughts. So that is what I'm trying to do. And happily it seems to be contagious.

[flyer]

I have a dog with displaced aggression. She has learned to pick up something in her mouth 90% of the time. This stops her ability to go after the other dogs and bite one of them. I did not teach it so not sure how you would go about it but you may want to find a way to teach Pan to pick up a toy or something when she has the "need" to take her aggression out on something.

 

I noticed that Colt would pick up sticks or tugs when he was feeling zoomy and or anxious so I started using that when he would bark at strangers. i.e. I would toss a stick to him on the trails and he would happily trot on. Now of course when he sees someone walking toward us he looks for a stick. Sticks for strangers, sit for joggers. BC's learn so fast. It's why we have to be careful what we teach them as we are always teaching them something every minute we are with them.

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

Here is a link to the "trick" category on dogwise.com

http://www.dogwise.com/Browse/SubCatList.cfm?SubCat=Tricks

I did actually see a good book today when I was at a training session, but for the life of me can't remember what it was. I'll be back at that facility on Wed. so I will take a peek.

I would look around and see if you can get the books cheaper on amazon or through a local book store. Usually you can. Being way up here in Canada, the shipping just isn't worth it, since I've developed a relationship with my trainer and the trainer with the rescue I volunteer for, they will order books for me when they put in their orders and I rarely have to pay more than list price.

You might want to look into some puzzle toys for her. Most of them are very expensive, but there are ones, like the kong products that are not too bad. There is also the buster cube and a ball version of it that you can put their meals in and literally make them work for their food. Great mental stimulation. Super cheap alternative, put the kibble in a 2L pop bottle and crimp the top (or in Pan's case I'd put the cap back on) so they have to get their food out of the bottle. I put the cap back on really tight for Daisy and she'll get it off within 2 or 3 minutes.

 

ETA: The book was "How to teach an old dog new tricks" by Ian Dunbar. I think it might be pretty good.

[pansmom]

Here is a link to the "trick" category on dogwise.com

http://www.dogwise.com/Browse/SubCatList.cfm?SubCat=Tricks

I did actually see a good book today when I was at a training session, but for the life of me can't remember what it was. I'll be back at that facility on Wed. so I will take a peek.

I would look around and see if you can get the books cheaper on amazon or through a local book store. Usually you can. Being way up here in Canada, the shipping just isn't worth it, since I've developed a relationship with my trainer and the trainer with the rescue I volunteer for, they will order books for me when they put in their orders and I rarely have to pay more than list price.

You might want to look into some puzzle toys for her. Most of them are very expensive, but there are ones, like the kong products that are not too bad. There is also the buster cube and a ball version of it that you can put their meals in and literally make them work for their food. Great mental stimulation. Super cheap alternative, put the kibble in a 2L pop bottle and crimp the top (or in Pan's case I'd put the cap back on) so they have to get their food out of the bottle. I put the cap back on really tight for Daisy and she'll get it off within 2 or 3 minutes.

 

ETA: The book was "How to teach an old dog new tricks" by Ian Dunbar. I think it might be pretty good.

 

We have a buster cube but no one has ever told us how to teach her to use it. How does that work? Anyone know?

 

I tried clicking to capture interest in it, and got that far, but I couldn't teach her how to move it around to get food out.

[2 Devils]

Put some really smelly/yummy treats in it. Show Pan when you shake it food comes out...

[pansmom]

Put some really smelly/yummy treats in it. Show Pan when you shake it food comes out...

 

I did that. She can't figure out how to shake it? I showed her that if you push it and knock it over the treats fall out. She eats the treats that fell out when I show her and then ignores it again?

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

The square one is a lot harder than the round one. Daisy also prefers the round one because she can pick it up and chuck it down the stairs. What I did was put cut up Natural Balance food roll in it first, let her smell the hole, put it on the floor and encouraged her to push it around with her paws. I'd nudge it with my fingers etc. and praise her when she went at it with her paws and nose. She was kind of difficult about it at first...expecting me to do it for her, but I just left her to figure it out. She got frustrated, barked at it, barked at me, but she likes those treats so much that she was determined to get them out. Use an extremely high value treat and make sure the opening is set on the widest setting. If she wants them bad enough she'll get them out. Or maybe start with the round one....

[pansmom]

The square one is a lot harder than the round one. Daisy also prefers the round one because she can pick it up and chuck it down the stairs. What I did was put cut up Natural Balance food roll in it first, let her smell the hole, put it on the floor and encouraged her to push it around with her paws. I'd nudge it with my fingers etc. and praise her when she went at it with her paws and nose. She was kind of difficult about it at first...expecting me to do it for her, but I just left her to figure it out. She got frustrated, barked at it, barked at me, but she likes those treats so much that she was determined to get them out. Use an extremely high value treat and make sure the opening is set on the widest setting. If she wants them bad enough she'll get them out. Or maybe start with the round one....

 

Ahh. I didn't know there was a round one. But this morning I tried working with her on it again and I figured out why she doesn't like it. I was watching her body language, it's the noise. I've been putting dry treats in it and the shaking sound scares her something awful. She was even scared to go near the cube to get a piece that had fallen out, ten minutes after I tossed it. I'll have to empty the darn thing, and then put something high value that doesn't make that rattling sound in it and see if that works. I got her to the point that she was play-barking at it, but she kept looking away from it and slinking around it, trying to avoid it. Obviously with the rattle it's not any fun.

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

That would do it. I'd try some cut up hot dog or anything super yummy you have around the house. Chicken livers are really cheap at the supermarket and you can bake them in the oven, cut them up and most dogs will sell their souls for them!

[pansmom]

That would do it. I'd try some cut up hot dog or anything super yummy you have around the house. Chicken livers are really cheap at the supermarket and you can bake them in the oven, cut them up and most dogs will sell their souls for them!

 

Oh yeah, hot dogs will work. I'll do that tomorrow. Thanks for the tip!