Developing scope

[Wendy V]

When do you start developing scope on a dog? I'm talking about massive distances of up to 800 yards or more. I know that there are dogs that can run the International at 2 yo, but I have also seen dogs, that when pushed to large distances at a young age, seem to lose their ability to gather close. I have recently acquired a young dog that could gather 400 yards at the age of 14 months, but will run out that distance even if the sheep are standing 50 yards in front of it. Is there a preferred age to train for scope?

[PennyT]

It is certainly possible to make a naturally square and wide dog too wide, especially by pushing out too young. As for a preferred age to broaden scope, I think that it has more to do with development than actual age.

 

Have you tried teaching a walk-up then flank for both fairly close flanks and for outruns?

 

You might also down the dog on the outrun and walk it in which you can eventually turn into a pull in on the fly.

 

A third possibility is teaching a "get in" when the dog is flanking around you. This seems from what you said to be the least likely to work with a dog that does what you describe because the behavior sounds fixed. Anyway, once a dog understands get in, you can have someone spook the sheep so the dog loses them when it goes too wide. "Oh, see what happens when you don't get in? You lose your sheep." Don't put anger in your voice. Anger won't bring the dog in.

 

Those three techniques may help make the problem manageable.

 

This is a tough issue because, as a result of being encouraged or forced too big, the dog may not genuinely want its sheep or have learned not to want them.

 

Penny

[Denise Wall]

Hi Wendy,

 

I suspect many dogs able to run 400 yards at 14 months are susceptible to becoming too wide. I tend to break *non too tight* outruns down into three categories. Depending on the dog, you will likely see one tendency more than another:

 

1) Dogs that run the field (may be what your dogs does). They tend to run or try to run the outer boundaries of whatever area they're in, cuing mainly on space and terrain not stock. Dogs that do this may just run wide naturally. IMO, this can be taught to a fault by pushing a dog out too far or to run the fence no matter what. Or by asking a dog to gather stock spread out to all perimeters of a field too much.

 

2) Dogs that run to the stock they think they're being sent after. They focus on running out specifically and with feel (as in adjusting as needed to the stock as they go out) to the stock they can see or see (or feel??) on the way out in the direction they're sent.

 

3) Dogs that run to the stock they're sent after but are still on the lookout for other stock they might see on the way on a reasonable outrun to the group they think they're going for.

 

I think of developing scope on outruns as finding a balance in the flexibility of a dog to run out at with at least some proficiency in each of the ways above depending on how I cue them from the start or on the way. This is what I try to communicate consistently with them from the start of training. So the answer to your question is I try to start developing cues for scope right off, even if it's not very far at first.

 

I indicate the direction I want them to run to stock by the way I'm facing. I make sure they look straight at that direction by telling them "look," "no" when they're looking the wrong way, "look" again and "good" when they finally look straight at my intended target. I set them up at certain angles to indicate the width and length of the outrun either before or after I do the "look" thing. But if I do the "look" thing first and then set the angle up, I normally do the "look" thing again to make sure we're still squared away on that. Ideally, I like to see them throw down when they understand the target. I have to watch closer on some dogs because they'll more subtly or quickly indicate they understand where the sheep are supposed to be and then start looking at the angle of their path to get there, which is not all bad because I can sort of tell their width from the start and correct the angle if need be.

 

Then I work on cues during the outrun for redirects (in or out). This may be the most important part of development, especially for a wide or natural (highly focused/opinionated outrunner). The cues vary depending on the dog. (Some of my dogs will fight you on a harsh correction to make them run wider and just run faster and tighter.)

 

I could go on and on but for the dog you describe, I would say his name (or "here" or something he responds to) however you need to to pull him in a little as he starts out if it's a short outrun and you know he's going to go too wide. This is just the start of building your communication though. I would try to build in all the flexibility you can for how you want him to run out.

 

I tried so hard to keep to the two inch limit. Hope you're still reading

[Wendy V]

I appreciate your contributions on the subject and the helpful suggestions about the young dog. I am working on the problem in two ways:

 

1) Avoid big gathers. I only alow him to gather sheep up close and in small areas, such as a pasture corner, where he is phyiscally unable to cast too wide.

 

2) Teaching the drive. Drive, drive, drive, that most all we do. I am trying to develop some forward momentum. No pressure, I walk with him the whole time, I just want to keep him moving forward with no casting.

 

I do want to focus the discussion on when to teach scope. Since I was a novice moving into open with my first dogs, I didn't get around to teaching scope until they were about 5 yo. I find that they have the flexibility to cast big or small. Now that I am training the second flight per se, I am not getting around to streching them out until 3 yo. I am not waiting to do so deliberately, it is just that I am stymied in my training efforts due to my lack of talent and training experience. But the new young dog, with his extreme overcast, does raise the question of when to introduce massive distance.

 

I appreciate your thoughts, even if it takes a couple cups of joe to read through.

[Sue R]

I tried so hard to keep to the two inch limit. Hope you're still reading

I have to admit that I handle shorter paragraphs better but, the more worthwhile your post is, the longer the total limit can be...

[Wendy V]

Sue, the 2 inch limit is for the questioner, not for the replies. I feel that the questioner has the obligation to the reader to make thoughtful, concise inquires, not to rattle on with a stream-of-conciousness, self-indulgant style of writing. I consider any replies to be a gift from the writer, and it can be gift-wrapped in any fashion; no rules, no limits. JMHO, of course.

[PennyT]

"I do want to focus the discussion on when to teach scope."

 

Little by little is the best answer, not when. The when comes in when little by little works.

 

Too young is unlikely to have caused the problem you have. What is more likely to have created it is too much of the same thing along with pushing out and over correction.

 

Penny

[Sue R]

Sue, the 2 inch limit is for the questioner, not for the replies. I feel that the questioner has the obligation to the reader to make thoughtful, concise inquires, not to rattle on with a stream-of-conciousness, self-indulgant style of writing. I consider any replies to be a gift from the writer, and it can be gift-wrapped in any fashion; no rules, no limits. JMHO, of course.

Whoops! Shows you how little I know. I'm grateful for your question and for the replies. We've had such good discussions here lately, and I'm trying to take it all in.

[Guest carol campion]

Hi Wendy

 

I have one I am focusing on the same thing with.

 

She is a 2 year old that has a HUGE natural outrun. In the beginning, as a 7-9 month old, she would cast out very wide and deep and just over run and come all the way around never looking to take control of anything, though she was looking for sheep when she first left. With this particular one, it was that she was so one sided she was too busy casting to her favorite side to think of anything else.

 

With her, I spent time getting her comfortable casting to the other direction and also spent a lot of time wearing. It was hard to get her to wear. I had to put a manual stop on the top to get her to fetch at first, otherwise she would just keep casting til the cows came home. By getting a stop on her at the top, and getting her thinking there was more to work that the one sided cast, she realized she liked working the sheep and taking control of them more than casting. So she started looking for the work to be had at the end of the cast. I didn't have to stop her for too long to enable her to reach the top and turn in on the sheep on her own. At that point I started sending her farther. I don't know if this is maybe a similar issue with yours or if this give you any insight.

 

Some dogs are bred with scope, so don't necessarily assume it is always a result of being pushed out. This female was not pushed out. Another bloodline I have first hand experience with is Whiterose Kep. If you acquire one that is from a line like his with his scope and not a lot of eye, it can be that instead of a one sidedness, there is nothing pulling them in or making them want to have contact.

 

Getting a pup at an older age will make it hard to tell if he was pushed out or if he is naturally scopy. You could look into his breeding to get an idea.

 

I would not send yours farther than the distance he is able to be confident about managing the sheep from. Scope doesn't always mean maturity to handle the sheep. Build towards that. It will certainly be an indicator of when to start stretching him out and allowing him to use his scope.

 

I think you are on the right track to work on contact to help him use the benefits of the scope.

 

Nothing nicer than a dog with natural scope and the desire to take control at the top.

 

Carol

[rac]

Wendy,

It's my experience that some dogs that will run 400 yds to get sheep that are only 50 yds away may not actually want to encounter the sheep or may be wary of encountering a cantankerous one. In my mind it can be their way of obeying the handler and their sensibilities at the same time. Another reason could be that the former trainer practiced on the same field having the dog make basically the same outrun time after time. And as the other contributors have essentially said, a young dog that is pushed out (that doesn't need to be pushed out) to the fence will learn to run the fence. Sometimes while watching dogs run at a trial it's possible to make a good guess about what the dimensions and shape of a particular dog's home field might be like. It's important to vary this as much as possible.

 

As far as teaching "scope" I'd have to say that I haven't actually set out on a training session having that as my goal. When I begin working with a dog on its outrun I'll work on keeping it out only until it starts to give to me. When I see that I'll back off and assess what I have, taking care at this stage not to overdo it. And, as stated, some dogs seem to have this trait more naturally than others. So what I look for, while the outrun is slowly growing and constantly changing shape, is for the dog to begin to look in at the sheep after it takes off, and for it to properly adjust the path of its outrun accordingly to affect a good outrun and not disturb the sheep too much at the top. Once I see this I feel confident that we can continue, and that later on the size of most outruns will probably not be a factor in the future. This doesn't mean the dog is 'good to go' at this point, it just means that I probably didn't make any huge mistakes in laying the ground work and that our foundation is most likely good. I'll feel comfortable continuing on, and the dog's scope will continue to develop as its experience broadens. So I guess I'm saying that something like scope IMO is built a piece at a time, and although the dog's traits may contribute in achieving it, it doesn't happen overnight. Trying to be watchful and sensitive to the dog when you're starting can be helpful. If the dog thinks that being 'out' and 'off the sheep' is what you want many will be happy to give that to you. Then you have the task of getting them back in ahead of you, and this IMO is one of the hardest things to do. Much better to avoid it. Hope this helps.

 

Ray

[Wendy V]

I've been neglectful in thanking those who responded to this thread. I appreciate your input. You have given me many thoughts of which to ponder.

 

Cheers,