Ninso Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 I have done tons of front-foot targeting with Lok, but I've recently discovered a need for rear-foot targeting and I'm having a bit of trouble finding a way to communicate to him what I want. He's totally confused. Specifically, I'm trying to teach a back stall for out disc routine (jumps up on my back and stays there). He will put his front feet up, but no amount of luring will get his back feet up onto me. So I think that having a "touch X with your back feet" (or even a "all 4 feet on this target") command will help. I am trying to shape it, but all I'm getting from him is front feet on the target (using a paper bag, so the texture is different than the carpet) or a down on the target. I've been trying to lure him over the target and every once in awhile his back feet will touch and I c/t, but he has no clue what I'm clicking for. We have done lots of rear-end work, like pivots, backing up, backwards leg weaving, etc. He knows how to move his rear end, but I'm just not sure how to get him targeting with his back feet. Any ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Boots Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 I would maybe try using something that was slightly elevated, large enough that he could easily get his back legs feet onto it, but small enough that it was difficult for him to have both his front and rear feet on the object. Also keep in mind, shaping can take a long time, and can require very small steps. At first you should be c/t just when he steps his rear end towards the item, then as he gets it you can up the ante. I have found that shaping comes a lot easier for my younger dog who I started shaping as soon as I adopted him at 10 months. My other border collie who I didn't start trying to shape behaviors until he was two or so takes a lot longer to figure out what I'm asking for, he wants to be told, instead of working it out on his own. Don't know what your history is with Ninso, but that might be part of it too. Also as far as the height thing, you may want to try to teach him to jump onto some sort of chair or something that is about the same height/size as your back and than transfer that over to you. Best of luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninso Posted March 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 Thanks for the tips. Elevation is a good idea. Do you think I should be backing him up onto it, or starting with his four feet on it and stepping his front feet down, or stick with shaping? Lok is in the same boat as your older dog with respect to shaping. I started using a clicker after doing a lot of luring training and he doesn't seem to "get" shaping and is not confident about offering behaviors. He also doesn't generally build upon a behavior but thinks that what I'm clicking him for is a finished behavior. This could very well be a product of my shaping skills or lack thereof! Also as far as the height thing, you may want to try to teach him to jump onto some sort of chair or something that is about the same height/size as your back and than transfer that over to you. Best of luck He does jump onto the ottoman, which is about the same height, but a much bigger surface. I will maybe try to find a smaller surface I could try to get him up onto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Boots Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 Since you are having issues with his hind end, I would start with just asking for his back feet onto the object. While pulling the front legs off might be easier, to me it would kind of be like asking for sit always before down, they should be able to be two seperate actions. I have also had the same problem with Boots thinking that a c/t is the finished behavior in shaping. I found that it was me rewarding for that behavior too many times and since he doesn't have the same problem solving drive that Ren does he would get very frusturated. Now when I'm shaping with him, I reward an action two or three times before changing it, it has seemed to help. But in the future I will definately always do shaping from day one. This may be completely off, but could you have him on the ottoman or similar object and kneel next to it and have him walk across to your back. Then maybe slowly increase the distance between you and the ottoman. I've never trained anything like that, but can imagine that my dogs wouldn't want to jump onto my back, partly out of respect of space. Just a thought... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninso Posted March 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 Another good idea JB! I will keeping working with him and trying different things. There is always more than one way of getting to the behavior you want, it's just a matter of finding one that works for the particular dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 I've found this to be a difficult concept for my dogs. I did unintentionally teach Dean how to do it, though, when I was using a toe board to teach him 2 on 2 off. Basically, I used food to lure him into a position where his front paws were on the ground and his rear paws were on a board on the ground. Once he had that down and didn't need to be lured anymore to get into that position, I used food to lure him off ever so slightly - so his back paws were still very close to the board. I had two chairs on either side of the board so he couldn't go off sideways and I was in front of him. When he moved backwards slightly, I clicked and gave a treat. What I eventually got was a behavior where I pulled him off the board with a treat and he stepped back onto it with his back paws on his own for a click and treat. I stopped there because I seriously don't want him to back onto contacts after moving off of them, but I easily could have put a name to the back foot targeting at that point and have started fading the chairs, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 Specifically, I'm trying to teach a back stall for out disc routine (jumps up on my back and stays there). He will put his front feet up, but no amount of luring will get his back feet up onto me. Any ideas? Just another suggestion. Rather than bothering with back foot targeting, what about teaching him to get up onto something with all four paws on cue. I would probably put a board up on two of those 1 foot high plastic stools and teach him to get up onto it with all four paws. Once I started to see this happen in one movement, I would put a very distinct word to it and then see if that behavior could translate into the move that you are trying to teach. If you still run into a snag after teaching it on a board, you could try teaching him to jump up with all four paws onto someone else's back on cue as a bridge, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninso Posted March 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 Thanks Kristine. That may be easier and also may better translate into the final behavior I'm looking for. I'll play around with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diane allen Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 This may not work, and it IS a different situation - but end result behavior wanted is similar. I wanted my youngster to "show me your bLack foot" ( it is one of his back feet!), by lifting it off the ground (much like the position in which a boy dog would pee...but I just didn't really want to associate it with that bodily function!). I started with a shoe box in a corner of a room. He knows "back" so I just walked him backwards until his feet hit the box, c/t, then he moved them onto the box, c/t. However....after I moved the box out of the corner, he really really wants to put his front feet on the box FIRST, then his back feet! (I taught him to "hop on" a lot of things when he was young - just to get him used to different surfaces, etc.) I haven't really worked it much - but there's my two cents worth! diane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninso Posted March 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Thanks Diane. Last night I started having him jump up onto an overturned laundry basket. It's a smaller surface than the ottoman and he wasn't quite sure about it, but I did get all 4 feet up a few times. We just need to build up consistency and confidence. Hopefully that will transfer to jumping up on my back. If not, box in a corner sounds like a good idea! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobcmom Posted April 3, 2009 Report Share Posted April 3, 2009 Ron Watson has a video on youtube working with Indy, a bc. He put a towel on the floor and had Indy backup until his back feet touched the towel, then click and treat. I tried the same thing but used a ribber car mat with a waffle pattern. I thought the extra texture would help. A lady I train with uses one of the Palates (sp?) work out balls with a flat bottom. She has her dog put his front feet on the ball. As she walks around the ball the dog has to rotate to stay facing her. The dogs front feet don't really move but they have to move their back feet to stay facing the handler. I tried the same thing with a big book. any time the dog moved her back feet it way click and treat. I gave this a name "face" to help them get the idea, (i.e. face me). My other thought for elevation was to have the dog back up towards stairs. Their back feet will need to step up when they reach the stairs. This also helps with he elevation idea. I have seen a youtube video where someone had trained their dog to jump on a picnic table then step onto the handlers back, to teach the back stall. The progressively used smaller platforms like a bucket or cloths basket to get the used to a smaller area of the handlers back. Good luck. Let us know what works. mobcmom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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