hereditary command intelligence?

[mcburniefarm]

OK, I know I shoudl not be surprised by Pirate's ability to learn....but do these guys have some kind of inherited word memory? I have never used "Look Back" until today, but after reading a post I decided to add that to our list of current words...Holy Crap. I always used to say "Come, bring it" when I wanted my dogs to come here with whatever "it" was. In this case "it" is my hay sled. He's obsessed with it and it's a party time noisy game he has with it, I'll post a video some day, it's a pants pisser. So anyway, I say Pirate "come, bring it", he stops playing, looks at me as if to say "AWW MOM, do I have to?" but comes to me. He hasn't got that I want the sled too, he acts as if I'm ruining his fun. So today I called "Pirate, Come" he took a step or two, I said "Look Back". DAMN! He looked back, picked up the rope, and waggingly brought me the sled. I was floored. Is this a lightning strike or is this programmed in there? Collective knowledge??? Tell me he can do laundry....please!

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Um, kind of doubt it about the laundry. But Border Collies can be really good at picking up what you want, particularly from body language. When you say "Look back", if you put any pressure on the ground in front of the dog (either by a lean or a glance or a step), most dogs will give - that part is programmed. A German Shepherd, for instance, will not usually give, but pressure back instead. Then when the dog turns around, you most certainly made some gesture, or sound, or body language of approval. When this is done on sheep, the dog then gets to "get" the sheep behind them, and it's doubly rewarding. Usually it's not nearly as difficult to teach a "turnback" as it is to teach them to wait for a command to get the sheep, once turned back on them (I want my dogs to wait for a flank command rather than the turnback automatically meaning do another outrun).

[Dixie_Girl]

I remember going to a trial over by Gafney, SC. On the last day, after the open's ran, the top 5 people (AFIK) in open was to do an international style run. I hope I remember right! Any way, in this run, the dog had to go get one group of sheep, bring them to the middle of the field, then leave them to go back and get another group and bring them to join the rest. Anyway, there was a fella there that had just got his dog into open, and I believe this was his first dog. Well, because he had just got into open, he had not taught his dog the command "look back". So, of course, he was in the top 5 and had to do the run. He sent his dog for the first group, then told him to look back. Several times. All this time, he had to remain at the post, so there was very little he could do as far as presure goes. The dog did finally go back up the hill for the other sheep! I think their inteligence has a lot to do with it, that and their awesome ability to read our thoughts, er, body language. Sorta like the dog that knows around 100 different names of toys, and if you put one in that he doesn't know the name of will still get it cuz he knows it's not one that he does know. But hey, good luck on the laundry!

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I've been to several Bluegrass trials (mostly as a spectator, never as an Open handler) and it seems like every year I've gone, there's been someone who makes it to Sunday, who's never done the international championship style course. Sometimes this happens at the Finals, even (I've seen only one finals and it happened then). And they do the championship course at the BR Carolina Championship in Lawndale, and again I've seen newcomers to the course who end up in that final round, many times.

 

As Linda said, most people can turn their dogs back with little problem - I think a lot of us when we train a young dog, the dog ends up splitting the sheep or leaving or missing some, and ge sent back for these - so the dog is familiar with what it means when we stop them and give them vague pressure backwards.

 

The first time I asked Ted for a "look back" - out in a rather large field with the sheep in question out of sight - he knew exactly what I meant because he spent a lot of time when he was much younger, er, putting sheep he'd split up, back together.

 

I'm far more amazed when I see the handlers and dogs who haven't done the international style shed before, do it for the first time at these huge events. Some of what needs to be done in this exercise is counterintuitive to the dog. But again the dogs can sort out what their handlers want, quickly - it's one of the things they ARE bred to do - teamwork. So seriously the answer is "yes" to the question of the OP. Not in the way you meant, of course (I know you were joking more or less ), but it's something I never cease to marvel at.

 

I know I constantly go on and on about Ted but it's lambing here now and he just astounds me about six times a day. He's the best dog I've ever had (and I've had a bunch). Ben was a wonderful dog who could read my mind, but his instincts came up short in executing what I wanted. Then I had a long series of dogs who just weren't team players, though they far outshone poor Ben in ability.

 

So though those dogs were better trained, in general, Ben for his entire life was my go-to dog for most chores. It was far more rewarding to work with a dog with no balance, slow sloppy flanks, and a habit of crashing into the sheep if he "popped" the pressure bubble accidentally - because Ben always wanted - NEEDED - to do what I wanted.

 

Now I have Ted who combines these two. Really, he's kind of a normal dog - I'm told he's got potential but he's got a lot of training still to go - but I recognize that he's the first dog I've ever had who actually had that correct combination of team spirit, and natural ability.

 

So I know what it's like to try to work a dog that's not particularly on the same page with me. And now I know what it's like to have a dog who's willing AND able to do what I need. I now consider this to a be a vital element of the stockdog package. For me, anyway.

 

Let us know about that laundry thing!

[Shetlander]

Is this a lightning strike or is this programmed in there? Collective knowledge??? Tell me he can do laundry....please!

 

Wouldn't that be nice? When Quinn was a pup, I hoped if I talked to him enough he'd someday be able to order pizza and return my DVD's. No such luck, but he is the most helpful dog I've had around the house. He will put all the toys away into a box and will also put socks and small towels into the laundry drop. I'm impressed by his ability to figure out what is out of place. The other night, a blanket fell between the sofa and wall. I could have fished it out but it was neat to be able to tell Quinn, go get the blanket. I really doubt he knows the word, but he immediately pounced on it and brought it right out. As Rebecca says, these dogs can be really great about figuring out what we want.

 

Re: the specific command, Look Back, I was amazed the first time I saw Quinn respond to that at a lesson. I had never taught that command but he looked back, saw the stray sheep and zipped off to return it where it belonged. I didn't notice what his instructor was doing (I'm sure I miss most of what is going on) but it was cool to see Quinn's response.

[Eileen Stein]

In my experience, if you say something in a tone of voice that makes it clear it's a command, a trained (i.e., knows what a command is) border collie who has never heard that command before will start trying to think of what it means -- what it is that you could want. If you say the command at a moment when there's an obvious thing you might want, the dog is very likely to hit on that thing immediately and try that, even if you don't indicate anything through body language. The "look back" on sheep is a good example. If a dog goes out and fails to bring all of the sheep--leaves some behind--that is a very good opportunity to teach the "look back." If the dog saw the other sheep, he is already feeling a little concerned that he might have been supposed to bring them too. If you say "look back" at that moment, the first idea of what you might mean that will pop into his mind is that he should have gotten those sheep, and he is likely to turn back for them. When he learns that he was right about that through your approval (or even your just shutting up), he is well on his way to learning what "look back" means. The good sheepdog trainers who teach the "lie down" command by giving it for the first time when the dog is on sheep and comes to balance are using the same principle. It feels right to the dog to lie down then, so he figures that's what you must be wanting.

[ItsADogsLyfe]

I might have mentioned some of this before, but I feel its appropriate here. My Meg is a tv watching fool. I used to let her watch sheepdog videos when she was much younger. When I started working her seriously, she already knew all the whistles without my teaching them. Her first trial was a nursery class. We put her in as filler (yeah I know). She had never done but maybe a 75 yrd outrun and not so good at that. She barely knew flanks and that was about it. Well they told me just send her and when she messes up call her off. Well I sent her and she did a lollypop outrun but it was 300+ yards so I was happy. She brought the sheep thru the fetch panels and up to me, put them around me and drove to the drive panels, did a cross drive barely missed those panels and did a pen. She placed 3rd. I was flabbergasted. She'd never driven in her life. She'd never penned. She's not the best working dog, but that was definitely her shining moment. We always wondered is she just really smart? Did watching all those sheep herding videos help? We'll never know.