Outrun training at the top

[gvmama]

3rd BC...do most of my training by myself. Not afraid to ask for help. Competitive, but in this mostly for fun/hobby. Passionate about it. :0)

 

Would someone list the different methods of training the dog to go deep at the top of the outrun. I read that outruns are an extension of the flank. I'm not sure I get this. I have a dog with slicey flanks ( a bit loose eyed/lacking power) and it moves his sheep well for him. He squares up his flanks at the pen and where it is needed. His outruns have always been pear shaped and deep at the top. So I'm not sure his outruns are an extension of his flank.

 

I would like to know people's methods for training deep at the top...whether it be staying close to the sheep (triangle) when you send your dog, or daisy petals, or stopping them and teaching them "out" when they get too close at the top. What methods work best for you?

 

Thanks, Suzanne

[Amelia]

Hello all. Hi Suzanne. I'm sorry no one has, as yet, jumped in on this. It's a good topic and a good question. When I start my dogs and I'm teaching a flank, I make sure it's square. I don't mean perfect from day 1, but generally speaking over time, I want the flanks to be square. But I also want the dog in contact and learning how to properly influence the sheep without being rash. I'm teaching lots of things at once and I really don't want a dog too wide and giving ground on a flank. That's a big problem to me.

 

The outrun is an extention of the flank because I gradually move farther and farther away from the stock when I ask the dog to flank. Now, somewhere in there my dogs learn that the first and most important job is to bring me all of the sheep, but that's a different question. Again, I'm teaching lots of things at once.

 

So, when the flank is correct from start to finish, I move back and ask him for more. Then I continue that until the dog understands that every time I send him, no matter how far or whether he can see sheep, they're out there somewhere and he has to bring them all to me while being correct all the way around. Clearly there's lots to it and how long it takes depends entirely on the dog and my ability to train, but I have found this to be very true; every time I flank a dog I have an opportunity to fix the top. So, even at hand after the dog has been trained up some, if he's wrong at the top when I flank him, I'll stop and fix it pretty much every time. That may involve stopping him at the top and kicking him out, correcting the way he starts with my position or calling him back and correcting him, giving him a growl at some point in the middle, etc. Depends on the dog. When I'm training a dog with something less than a great natural outrun, consistency is the most important thing to me.

 

You didn't say how old your dog is and I'm talking about starting a youngster. Fixing an aged dog at the top is a different question, to me anyway, and I hope I've replied to the right question.

 

Cheers all,

[Albion Urdank]

Hi Suzanne,

It doesn't actually sound like you have a problem with depth at the top, and square flanks are really only appropriate on lighter sheep in order to release pressure so that they don't turn to the right or left instead of continuing straight on. On heavy sheep half-flanks or what we might call "sliced" flanks are preferable, because as Amelia suggests, they keep the dog in contact with the stock. I was once at a trial back east where the sheep were unusually heavy for that area, and one dog caught my attention because every time it flanked, the sheep stopped and grazed, the reason being the flanks were too square, and mechanically so, and the dog was releasing pressure on sheep thereby who needed to have that pressure on them continuously. A half-flank would have done the job and since the sheep were heavish, they could take the pressure without bolting off line. And dogs can be taught or allowed to vary the relative squareness of their flanks according to the sheep they are working and according to how closely they need to work them. So, the point is that whether the flank is square or sliced, it still may serve as the beginning of the outrun. I begin with simple walkabouts to teach the basic commands and to teach the dog to rate its sheep and balance and to square up as I turn; and then at some point, I turn the walkabout occasionally into a circle (because dogs need to also to flank off balance), and I teach in that context a widening out command (Keep, or Get), and I have a whistle version as well. When the dog is wide enough at a certain point, with the sheep standing next to me, I first stop the dog, then give it a flank command. When the dog gets to 10 O'clock or 2 O'clock I step toward it and raise my crook and say "keep" and follow the dog around a bit until it gets in back and is relatively deep. I work the top for depth in this fasion before going for serious distance, and I drill it so that going deep becomes habit. Then I do what Amelia does and gradually move away from the sheep and closer to the dog, and at the same time I might increase the distance the dog is standing from the sheep. Eventually, I'm standing by the dog and can send it from my side. Now if I'm not near the sheep and the dog is sent on an OR, despite all the drilling at the top, it might be tempted to come in flat or slice the top anyway because there is no handler pressure there. If I see this possibly happening. I stop the dog, move toward it and tell it keep, as I push it out, and then follow it around. Evenutally, I can do this with only a widening flank command. That's how I see the OR being an outgrowth of the flank. And again it doesn't matter if the flank is square or sliced, because that can vary according to conditions, and a flank is a flank regardless. The cricling, by the way, can help the dog square up if you stop the dog at strategic points and have it walk up.

 

Kind regards,

Albion

 

3rd BC...do most of my training by myself. Not afraid to ask for help. Competitive, but in this mostly for fun/hobby. Passionate about it. :0)

 

Would someone list the different methods of training the dog to go deep at the top of the outrun. I read that outruns are an extension of the flank. I'm not sure I get this. I have a dog with slicey flanks ( a bit loose eyed/lacking power) and it moves his sheep well for him. He squares up his flanks at the pen and where it is needed. His outruns have always been pear shaped and deep at the top. So I'm not sure his outruns are an extension of his flank.

 

I would like to know people's methods for training deep at the top...whether it be staying close to the sheep (triangle) when you send your dog, or daisy petals, or stopping them and teaching them "out" when they get too close at the top. What methods work best for you?

 

Thanks, Suzanne

[gvmama]

Thanks to both Amelia and Albion for their time in answering my question. I think I get it. :0) The dog I am presently working is an 11 month old pup. I only get to work her 2-3 times a week. Since she is young, she is only worked for short periods of time. Your answers did a lot of clarifying in my mind. For this I am grateful. My pup is sooooo bidable and so loving to work her sheep, I hate to mess her up! Now that you have it clarified my inquiry, I will decide on some consistency (verbage/pressure/release of pressure) in her training. Thank-you.

http://walkupbcs.blogspot.com/ Suzanne

[Bo Peep]

Thanks to both Amelia and Albion for their time in answering my question. I think I get it. :0) The dog I am presently working is an 11 month old pup. I only get to work her 2-3 times a week. Since she is young, she is only worked for short periods of time. Your answers did a lot of clarifying in my mind. For this I am grateful. My pup is sooooo biddable and so loving to work her sheep, I hate to mess her up! Now that you have it clarified my inquiry, I will decide on some consistency (verbage/pressure/release of pressure) in her training. Thank-you.

http://walkupbcs.blogspot.com/ Suzanne

Oh I see you have Virgil's book- A good one. I'm noticing that with "dog broke" sheep, they tend to come to you quicker. That's why we throw a few goats, etc... in there. I'm no expert, that's why I'm taking lessons. We do a little STOMP and try to get it at the right moment. Timing is everything and I am NOT good at timing. Best of luck- if you find out how to fix that and what advice worked. Let me know.

[gvmama]

Oh I see you have Virgil's book- A good one. I'm noticing that with "dog broke" sheep, they tend to come to you quicker. That's why we throw a few goats, etc... in there. I'm no expert, that's why I'm taking lessons. We do a little STOMP and try to get it at the right moment. Timing is everything and I am NOT good at timing. Best of luck- if you find out how to fix that and what advice worked. Let me know.

 

The above U-tube was Yoko's first time on goats at 9 mos. I let her "cowgirl-up" a bit to get her confidence on the little tricksters. Plus, they were as you described less likely to come to me as quickly as sheep. It also gave her confidence to take a little nose nip when they hid behind fences and faced her off. She loves to heel (mostly I believe from lack of confidence in her young career), but I want her to feel confident about going for a nose, too. I have 7 sheep. Unfortunately they are HUGE and a bit threatening. I have been trailering them to the desert to work my dogs. I'm looking to trade sheep (exchange) with someone fairly local at the moment.

I think Albion was correct in saying that my problem wasn't depth at the top. My problem is knowing "when" to put the right amount and type of pressure on her when she is wrong. If she isn't deep at the top, she probably was wrong at 10 or 2 o'clock in my mind. :0)

If I lived in Idaho I would be going to Patrick Shannahan (where I got my first dog) or to Don Helsley.

Lucky you! Suzanne