Question to the "Trainers" and "Students"

[DJF]

So I was at a trial the other weekend and I heard a lot of discussion about who works with whom. There were "so and so's" students under this tent and then over there their were another "trainer's" students under that tent and so on and so forth. My question is what makes a good trainer and what makes a good student?

 

For those "students" out there, what is it that you want a "trainer" to do? Are you more concerned with gaining an education or is it something else? How do you pick a trainer? What are some of the things that attract you to a trainer and what are some of the things that would turn you away?

 

I'm asking because I saw some flaws in my runs and want to get help with those flaws, but everyone kept just trying to get me to go to their instructor. It became confusing...

 

Thanks

Jacob

[Mona Howard]

When you are at the trials watch how the handler's handle their dogs. Do you like their particular teamwork?

Does the dog seem confidant and take direction well from the handler? Can the dog think with it's

own mind and not need to be told where to put every footstep? Are they a good team? The relationship

the handler has off the field with the dog is also important to me. Are they soft spoken or yelling all the time?

Some people (me) like a softer dog that wouldn't work well with an aggressive type of trainer. Some people

don't like a soft type of dog, maybe they need someone that works well with a harder type of dog. Some trainers

work miracles with all types of dogs. You will probably see a few that would work for you. If you like your friends

trainer also that can be fun as you can go to work your dogs together and not only learn from your own dog but from

watching other dogs and their progress and problems. That's what I like.

[Sue R]

What Mona said is very good advice. I was told a long time ago that the person you want as a trainer is the person whose relationship with their dog is the kind of relationship you want with your dog. To me, that means mutual respect, partnership, quiet handling, good control, and not overdirecting.

 

As Mona said, though, there are good trainers that are not a good match for a particular person and/or a particular type of dog, while they might be great for someone else and/or a different dog. That is where you have to look at yourself and your dog, and understand both your temperments and what your goals are.

 

I was at the Finals at Gettysburg where it really hit me - I saw handlers that I would love to emulate, and saw (and heard) handlers who just made me cringe - all at Open level and qualified for Finals. The ones though that did the best job were the quiet ones, those that didn't depend on "downs" constantly as the work flowed smoothly, those whose dogs were their partners in the work, and those whose dogs seemed happy about working with their handler because of all the above.

 

I've never seen a situation such as you describe, with trainers each with their little "flock" of students, at least not to know it. Well, I take that back, as I have seen that sort of thing once with a trainer who trials both Open in USBCHA and is very active in AKC. I can understand that there are folks who trial along with their trainers and, if they are successful and happy with their instruction and progress, are advocates for that trainer. But you need to look and say, "Is that the kind of handler I would like to be?"

 

My goals are to understand stock better, to understand the dog(s) better, to develop a partnership with my dog(s) along with mutual respect, and to improve overall as a handler by learning and progressing. Trialing is not a goal with me although to improve to the point that my dog(s) and I were capable of competing and enjoying it would be nice - my goal is calm, quiet, low-stress stockwork at home on our farm. That is why I have a trainer and attend certain clinics.

 

I expect you will get many good replies to this question, as it is a very good one.

[Pearse]

So I was at a trial the other weekend and I heard a lot of discussion about who works with whom. There were "so and so's" students under this tent and then over there their were another "trainer's" students under that tent and so on and so forth. My question is what makes a good trainer and what makes a good student?

 

For those "students" out there, what is it that you want a "trainer" to do? Are you more concerned with gaining an education or is it something else? How do you pick a trainer? What are some of the things that attract you to a trainer and what are some of the things that would turn you away?

 

I'm asking because I saw some flaws in my runs and want to get help with those flaws, but everyone kept just trying to get me to go to their instructor. It became confusing...

 

Thanks

Jacob

 

Depends on what you want. To me, a trainer is someone to whom I send my dog to be trained. In that case, I'm looking at how that person runs their own dogs, and at dogs they have trained for others. How well do the dogs work, do they seem to have a good basic outrun, flanks etc..

 

From a learning to handle a dog perspective, frankly that's a longer process and I'd be looking for someone again whose handling style I liked but also someone I got along with.

 

From a learning how to train a dog perspective, that's going to take three or four dogs worth of time and so again I'd be looking for someone I got along with, but I suspect like most people, one learns a bit here and a bit there and adapts it to one's own style and preferences.

 

I don't know what trial you were at but, if it were me, I'd avoid anyone whose groupies hang out under separate tents at trials.

 

Pearse

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I agree with Julie. I used to train with a guy who had a real talent for picking fights with folks. By the time I trained with him, about everyone I knew had at least a cordial dislike for him. But, he was friendly with most of their instructors, and so there was plenty of mixing and matching of the groups of students. It even crosses "party" lines here - some of my oldest and best trial friends are very tight in the AKC scene.

 

One of the things I love about USBCHA trialing is that it really is "open."

[stockdogranch]

I think others have given some good advice so far. Of course, some of the response really (unfortunately) depends on logistics, too. How close is the best trainer to work with and how often can you get there? And, as Pearse says, are you looking for someone to put 60 or 90 days on your dog to just move it forward a bit more, or are you looking for a mentor to teach you how to become an Open handler and to train up a dog? I'd say look at the trainer/handler's style of working his/her own dogs and how successful s/he is (so, is this person consistently in the top 5 or 10 at any given trial), also look at the relationship between this trainer and his/her students and their dogs. How long have some of them been with this person, and how far along are they?

 

I've also never seen groupies in separate tents, other than ACK events,

 

A

[Smokjbc]

I haven't experienced the groupie thing either, except once in a Kelpie person who had a flock of students who were never allowed to go to another person's clinic or listen to any other advice but the trainer's. I have been winging it, with some private lessons here and there and some clinics, but it really became evident that with my move to Open, I really needed some help with my dog. Plus, my SO needed help from someone who was not me (anyone who works dogs with a spouse/SO probably knows what I mean . Driving wasn't an issue because it was going to be a minimum 5-6 hour drive no matter who I picked, and I think there are several suitable people at that distance from me. So what I looked for was the following:

 

- Someone who runs dogs the way I like, and the type of dog I like. I have a soft, easy Open dog now but I prefer a pushier dog and I have a youngster that has some go to her, so wanted someone who was running strong dogs but making it look smooth.

 

- Someone with suitable facilities- my Open dog has been having outrun problems, so having someone who could help with that and offer multiple outrun scenarios was important.

 

- Brutal honesty. I can't speak for Mike, but I want to know the truth straight out- not snap judgements, just honest criticism.

Also, not being able to go but once every month-two months makes it necessary to have a direct approach that is effective.

 

- I wanted someone who had been successful with Nursery dogs, as I am considering running Jet in Nursery, if she trains up.

 

- Price within reason as it is necessary to figure out gas/food/lodging into my lesson budget.

 

- Suitable stock- our sheep at home are pretty broke and boring, so needed to have "real sheep" to work.

 

I am really happy with the person I found- she helped us both quite a bit and we are heading down there again this weekend. She pointed out some (duh!) things with Jane that I had not seen, plus helped me with a strategy to make her more responsible for her outrun work- I was making a crutch for her that she was more than happy to use on nervous trial days. She got me started right with the pup. And we must have worked at least 4 or 5 different groups of sheep over the weekend that were challenging and good work for the dogs. We worked as a group so got to see many levels of dogs/students work so we were learning even when we weren't running our dogs. I don't have alot of experience with different instructors, but I think it's safe to say I'm probably spoiled for anyone else .

[Sue R]

Jaime alluded to another good thing to think about - some trainers are not very open to other's ideas and some are. Find out how your trainer-to-be feels about this.

 

If I go to a clinic or were to have the chance to take a lesson with another trainer, my trainer is happy to discuss what we did, willing to try anything we did that I felt was helpful or successful (that is reasonable in her mind and with her stock), and not offended. Not all trainers are so easy and some feel it downright offensive if a student choses to go to a clinic or have a lesson with another trainer. Or, some will not consider trying something at their facility that you found was helpful from another trainer.