Dog started wrong

[urbanfarms]

Ok, I've really screwed my dog up. A stupid beginner mistake for sure!

I started my female in our milking barn with no particular plan in mind, just wanting her to help perform some common tasks on the farm, so I didn't start her the way that your suppose to. (MISTAKE!)

I guess she was kinda started more or less driving, instead of gathering. So, now into the warmer months I have found that we have new tasks for her that include gathering the cattle, and she won't go around them either way unless I go with.

She has now learned to always stay in front of me and never go out on her own. I try to encourage her and she gets confused and excited and breaks them right down the middle. I know it is completely my fault and she simply doesn't know any better.

So here's the question: Where do I go from here? Now that I have read the books (A little too late) and seen how it's suppose to be done I am dumbfounded. Should I just start completely over from base 1?

[gail]

I wouldn't beat myself up over this. There are numerous people that start dogs gathering & driving at the same time. While most traditional approaches have you gathering first, there is nothing that says your dog would not have done the same thing & gone right up the middle if you had started her gathering.

 

So, I would train her to do an outrun/gather just like I was teaching any dog. You don't say how you are setting up the situation when you try to get her to gather - you need to set it up to encourage her to go around & prevent her from running up the middle. Describe the circumstances & positioning better & you will get more specific help here. Or, you can go to an experienced handler for some help.

 

Good Luck, Gail

[kelpiegirl]

Well, if she's bred right, then her gathering instinct should kick in. Have you any sheep to work with? If you do, I would get a group of novice dog sheep, and get her in a down or stay, walk to the sheep, and then shush her. You would be right in front to block any straight on bowling for sheep attempts. She will go around you to get to them, and then you need to walk off to to keep them moving. Get her to realize that keeping the sheep is the object (and if these are knee knockers, they will).

[Laurae]

A couple of years ago I was at a Kathy Knox clinic in Wyoming, and the majority of participants were ranchers using their dogs to drive their cattle. None of them had ever used their dogs to gather, and in fact they actively corrected the dogs for trying to go to the heads. Kathy spent a couple of 90+ degree days in a round pen with each these dogs, just encouraging them to go around and blocking the dogs when they started to turn back. It was super hot, sweaty, physical work for her the first two days, but by the third day, every single one of these dogs had reawakened their instinct to go to the head. Some improved more (or maybe just faster) than others, but all made great strides and were gathering their sheep. I recommend doing this in a round pen, or—even better—trying to get to a Kathy or Jack Knox clinic.

[1sheepdoggal]

Im not sure "screwed up" is exactly the terminology Id use, though Ive said it about dogs of my own as well. More like simply gotten off on the wrong foot, or perhaps just sent a few wrong messages to the dog. How old is she?

One that truly wants to work, and has the skills and instincts to do the job are hard to truly "screw up" Just put them in the hands of a more competant handler and watch them shine. Starting over, wouldnt be entirely a way Id look at the situation either. As she really wasnt started, in the sense of the word anyway. So now is your time to start. Now that you have a better sense of what needs to happen and how to go about it. I would suggest attending a clinic or two first, and give the dog a break for a bit to allow her time to forget some of the things she has learned. Set up your situations for a win/win and find a mentor or trainer to work with/ or a knowledgable person that you trust, and agree with thier ways of training that you can have watch your dog, and help you to find the good the bad and the ugly, and to help/support you in getting her back on track. It really isnt as bad as you think. Take it from some one that has "screwed" up a few good dogs herself in the name of progress and learning. Good luck, I hope others will chime in with more, "help" but I just wanted to let ya know that its not the end of the world, and she'll probably come around just fine with proper situations and proper handling.

[Wendy V]

I would recommend the DVD, "Starting your Border Collie on Cattle, Sheep, and Ducks" , by Rural Route Videos, http://www.ruralroutevideos.com/. It is very instructive on the beginning aspects of herding work.

 

Good luck to you and your dog.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Good luck on this! I have no real advice (other than, I second the packed pen, and third it too). But I can say it takes a lot to truly ruin a good dog. I have not done it yet and if I can't do it, then I doubt anyone can. By good dog I mean one bred with all the right pieces in mind, and by ruin I mean to where it's not useful for anyone.

 

My first dog I made every mistake there is to make. But he's got a huge heart and a desire to please and that always gets him a bit more progress even at this late date (he's now twelve).

 

I made some lu-lus with my youngster, too, but he's got that same big heart and want to please, and I don't believe I've quite ruined him. Time will tell if my mistakes have hampered his ability to compete at higher levels, but that's beyond the scope of usefulness.

 

Definitely try to find some local help. That was something I wish I'd had my first few years.

[urbanfarms]

Thanks to everybody for their input, I truly appreciate it!

As for finding help or sheep, I have tried for quite awhile with no success. I have found a trainer, but she is 2 hours away atleast. I simply don't have the money with the way gas is right now. I have trouble finding anyone to let me use their livestock because they automatically assume they will be run a lot and they do not feed them so that they can run it all off and not get nice and fat (or so I'm told).

As for how I am setting her up, I have previously had her in an alley all winter driving the tame milk cows through the barn and keeping them off of me when I feed. Now that it is nice out I have taken her out to the pasture with the milk cows and she takes off aiming to get herself a bite of some heels and thats about it. I had too much trouble with this as the cows would not stay by me. They have internal clocks telling them it is time to be milked and head straight for the barn once the dog gets their lazy butts up .

SO, I took her to a small yard with pretty mild heifers in it. I would say it is the size of a large round pen, but square.

I tried to stand in front and she wouldn't do much of anything. I think she thought I was discouraging her. Also, I think there are just too many in the pen for me to circle and around with her and keep up so that she won't break them up.

I am thinking of purchasing 3 or so sheep to train her on and then selling them when she is ready to move on to the pasture.

By the way, she is 2 years old, and has always been difficult to get near the cattle's heads.

Thanks again to everyone!

[KathyF]

Urbanfarms-

 

Where in MN are you located?? Since I am in MN maybe I can help you find someone to work with you.

 

Kathy

[Sue R]

Your problem is not too unlike mine. I, too, as a novice have made many mistakes with my two dogs and, while not ruined, they are not working at their potential. My youngster has quite a bit of eye and tends to run right up the middle, and also is "fond" of the hind ends of cattle and not so fond of the front ends (the opposite of my older dog who is a heading fool).

 

If the sheep are running towards the draw, his instincts kick in and he casts out and around to the heads but, whenever the situation allows him to think about it, he locks on and goes straight in. As our older dog is not good at driving, we have made the training mistake (out of necessity) of using the younger one for driving the cattle, and that's what he is comfortable doing.

 

To try and enourage him to get around his cattle, I have to use a lot of my body pressure to get him moving out and around. I am still not very successful as he almost always stops and comes in on them (at about 3 o'clock if I am at about 6 o'clock) while the other dog is going around to the balance point (usually around 12 o'clock).

 

If you can get sheep, I would certainly encourage you to do so. We don't have sheep (we need to get some but right now our fences are not sheep-suitable). It is so much easier to start, do small pen work, etc., on sheep than cattle - even pretty cooperative, younger cattle.

 

The sheep group together better, respond more quickly and easily to the dog, and you can see the dog over the sheep. I did start my older dog on a couple of bottle-raised heifers, which wasn't too awful bad but which was definitely not optimal. I think I would avoid bottle-raised sheep if possible - they just don't work like naturally-raised sheep.

 

I would second what has been said about making the right easy and the wrong hard. I think that, once she can figure out what it is that needs to be done, her instincts should kick in and you should see improvement. Consider strongly if you can get some sheep - I think they could be a big help in the training. I sure wish I had some.

 

Also, and more importantly, try to find a suitable trainer - you can learn so much from someone who knows what they are doing! The gas is an issue - to go to my trainer (in my small car) takes $50 worth of gas (at current prices - who knows what that will be shortly?) and I am not able to go this summer at all due to cost (and only once a month previously). But it is so worth it if you can manage to do it.

 

I don't know where you are in MN but in WI there are some terrific clinics offered in spring (Derek Scrimgeour, who has some terrific DVDs available with the latest being "Training Secrets of a Hill Shepherd").

 

Best wishes!

[Nancy Bovee]

I am CERTAINLY no expert, but I've been working with my kinda sticky 2 year old who doesn't want to leave the pressure to gather. What's worked for me is lying the dog down and going to the other side of the sheep and then going for walks, letting him balance, and making my own swerves larger until I'm running to swap sides. This keeps the dog pretty loose. Don't know if it will work for you, but it eases them in to the gather rather than putting that pressure on to leave from feet right away. This opinion may or may not be worth 2 cents.

 

Nancy

Ok, I've really screwed my dog up. A stupid beginner mistake for sure!

I started my female in our milking barn with no particular plan in mind, just wanting her to help perform some common tasks on the farm, so I didn't start her the way that your suppose to. (MISTAKE!)

I guess she was kinda started more or less driving, instead of gathering. So, now into the warmer months I have found that we have new tasks for her that include gathering the cattle, and she won't go around them either way unless I go with.

She has now learned to always stay in front of me and never go out on her own. I try to encourage her and she gets confused and excited and breaks them right down the middle. I know it is completely my fault and she simply doesn't know any better.

So here's the question: Where do I go from here? Now that I have read the books (A little too late) and seen how it's suppose to be done I am dumbfounded. Should I just start completely over from base 1?