arena trial or field trial?

[Laurae]

I have two trial dogs—Taz, a novice dog whose training is finally moving forward, and Craig, a trained dog now competing in pro-novice/open ranch with me. We have competed in three trials this year, with the last one this past weekend. Unfortunately, the number of trials we will be able to compete in for the rest of the summer will be pretty limited. I may have the opportunity to run Craig in a field trial in August, but there is no novice class at this trial and, since we've stopped working on driving at all for the past few months to focus on fixing his outrun, Taz is not ready to move up yet. (Plus, it will be a tough course, and I'd have my hands full handling Craig.) On the other hand, that same weekend, I can run both dogs in an arena trial. This arena trial will obviously be easier than the field trial, but both my dogs are pretty pressure-sensitive, so maybe it won't be that much easier. Of course field trials are what we are training for, but it would be nice to run both dogs. And I would like more practice trialing Taz, period. So I am weighing both options right now. Any thoughts?

[Shoofly]

I'd run the field trial. It'll be better experience for you, which benefits both dogs in the long run.

[SoloRiver]

I dunno. If you really want to run both dogs I'd go to the arena trial. They can be kinda fun, and if it's attached to a state fair or something there'll be cotton candy.

 

Arena trials are fun for variety, often having weird obstacles, and creative courses. And yeah, overall I guess they're easier. On the other hand the course is so tiny that any mistakes become really magnified -- for example, it's easy to miss the second set of panels when the crossdrive is like, 50 feet and your line looks more like a parabola and they're using hair sheep that are running 45 mph through the course.

 

Or you could go to the field trial and run Taz non-compete for shits and giggles. You never know. I know that moving Fly up to Open, which in retrospect was a mistake, did point out a bunch of things we need to work on that I hadn't been fully cognizant of. Unfortunately for us, they are things that we have limited ability (schedule feasibility for training, access to sheep) and time (Fly is going to be ten in December) to fix, but it's stuff I MIGHT be able to fix and that I know now to look out for as Jett begins her training.

 

Either way you'll get something out of it. Eh, for me when money's tight sometimes it depends on entry fees, which are holy crap much higher on the west coast than they were back home.

[Lenajo]

Either one is fine. It's the attitude you go with, and the quality of work you insist on, that will continue your training progress.

[airbear]

I would choose the field trial. I just think there's so much you can learn, watching the big dogs run.

 

Could you run Taz non-compete and retire after the gather? Or perhaps you could offer to work set-out with him, so he gets some work?

[juliepoudrier]

I'd choose the field trial as well. Like Robin said, what you can learn from your experiences on the open course will put you way ahead on the learning curve with Taz. I'd want to use Craig to my fullest advantage while I could. I was given a retired open dog to learn from, and because of a subsequent injury we had limited trial time together. I used every chance I got to run her at open trials so I could learn. If you can't do a noncompete run with Taz, there's also the option of exhausting for a few runs, so he gets some work experience while you're there.

 

I just wonder even if you can run both dogs in the arena ultimately how productive it would be given that you say they are both pressure sensitive (and I think you've said that's caused issues in the past at such trials).

 

J.

[kelpiegirl]

Laura

I am in the same boat as you-but my problem is, I signed up for one, and forgot about the other. I like arena trials- Lucy likes the work in them, and I feel a lot more relaxed, but in general I strive to go to the field trials. I would go for the field trial, and then pick up some arenas as they come up.

[Laurae]

Thanks for all the thoughts, guys. I think everyone has made some great points, but what Julie said really stood out for me, that I should take advantage of my time with Craig. He will be 10 next month, so he won't be around forever. I know I should run him now, while I still can, and learn as much as possible before I have to retire him. I am not sure I will even get in to this trial (there's a wait list, but I was told people are pulling out due to the crazy gas costs), but I am going to try. I am also going to see if I can help out a bit.

 

About running Taz non-compete--doesn't that sort of thing piss people off, given the long trial days?

[Pippin's person]

Hey Laura,

 

I think it kind of depends on what your ultimate goals are and what you think you'll get out of doing the one vs. what you'll get out of the other.

 

I like trials a lot because I feel so much more focused and I find trialing so much more intensive for the relationship I'm trying to build with my dogs--but ultimately, my goal is to master the craft as much as I can. So, in your situation, I'd probably run Craig in the field trial and then try and do an extra training session or something like that with Taz. Maybe try to scribe or work in the set-out pen at the field trial to get a little more insight into the work itself. And, like Julie P. suggested--working the exhaust pen with Taz will let him get some work or running him non-compete and retiring after the gather seems great too and a good compromise.

 

All that said, I haven't ever seen an arena trial--and I could imagine that if part of the goal is working on close-up work, then you might benefit from doing that.

[Laurae]

Well, I've noted in the past that Taz typically doesn't exactly shine in arena trials, as Julie alluded to. But, the couple of arena trials I did with him before were back in the bad old days, when I made excuses for Taz's sloppy work instead of demanding correct work. It would be interesting to see what he'd do now at an arena trial, but ultimately I'm more interested in, as you say Robin, mastering the craft and learning as much as I can at this point.

 

I've also been a little reluctant to try to work Taz in the pens or exhausting or what have you because it's sort of been drilled into me not to do any of that kind of work if you're still a novice. I was in fact discouraged from exhausting at one trial with Craig, so I don't know that I'm brave enough to ask to help out with sheep with Taz. I don't want to piss anyone off, so I figure my time will come someday

[Pippin's person]

Well, I've noted in the past that Taz typically doesn't exactly shine in arena trials, as Julie alluded to. But, the couple of arena trials I did with him before were back in the bad old days, when I made excuses for Taz's sloppy work instead of demanding correct work. It would be interesting to see what he'd do now at an arena trial, but ultimately I'm more interested in, as you say Robin, mastering the craft and learning as much as I can at this point.

 

I've also been a little reluctant to try to work Taz in the pens or exhausting or what have you because it's sort of been drilled into me not to do any of that kind of work if you're still a novice. I was in fact discouraged from exhausting at one trial with Craig, so I don't know that I'm brave enough to ask to help out with sheep with Taz. I don't want to piss anyone off, so I figure my time will come someday

 

I know that I wouldn't (or rather don't) volunteer for exhaust because I'm totally not brave enough --why were you discouraged from working exhaust with Craig?

 

I think the reason you give above for the arena trial sounds like a pretty good argument for doing that instead of the field trial--so that you can see what Taz will do relative to what he used to do in the very same environment--in other words to test your new training program. Hard choice really--esp. given that Taz can be pressure sensitive--I still think if it were me, I'd do the field trial. And like kelpiegirl said, you can still pick up arena trials later if you want to test Sir Taz.

[Laurae]

I know that I wouldn't (or rather don't) volunteer for exhaust because I'm totally not brave enough --why were you discouraged from working exhaust with Craig?

 

I don't know. I guess the person I asked didn't think I was up to the task

 

I think the reason you give above for the arena trial sounds like a pretty good argument for doing that instead of the field trial--so that you can see what Taz will do relative to what he used to do in the very same environment--in other words to test your new training program. Hard choice really--esp. given that Taz can be pressure sensitive--I still think if it were me, I'd do the field trial. And like kelpiegirl said, you can still pick up arena trials later if you want to test Sir Taz.

 

Well, there is another arena trial later in August, so I'll definitely enter that one (and report back ). I do wish there were more local trials to enter. What a bummer that now that I am ready to enter trials, gas prices prohibit traveling too far to find them!

[Pearse]

I know that I wouldn't (or rather don't) volunteer for exhaust because I'm totally not brave enough --why were you discouraged from working exhaust with Craig?

 

I think the reason you give above for the arena trial sounds like a pretty good argument for doing that instead of the field trial--so that you can see what Taz will do relative to what he used to do in the very same environment--in other words to test your new training program. Hard choice really--esp. given that Taz can be pressure sensitive--I still think if it were me, I'd do the field trial. And like kelpiegirl said, you can still pick up arena trials later if you want to test Sir Taz.

 

 

I'd choose field trials until you have both dogs working well. I haven't run many arena trials but I've run a few with a decent Open dog and it's tough on them. The walls put pressure on the dogs as does the noise. The sheep act oddly too. I think it takes a level-headed dog to do well in an arena unless you are going to run it where you get to walk around the course with the dog wearing sheep to you the entire time, in which case - why bother?

 

On exhausting sheep with a young dog. I'd discourage it too especially if you are having problems with outruns or the dog has a fair bit of eye. At most trials, the sheep are heading towards the exhaust when you send the dog. This encourages dogs to pull up short. Plus, you have the confounding influence of what ever the competing dog decides to do with the sheep. It can screw a young dog up. It's like trying to train outruns on sheep that are halfway up the field before the dog gets a quarter way too them. It does more harm than good.

 

I'd work on training until you can run a decent PN course before you trial. The training is always the goal and the fun. The trialling is the test of how well the training is going. Most people are in too much of a rush to trial (in my opinion).

 

Pearse

[Laurae]

I'd choose field trials until you have both dogs working well. I haven't run many arena trials but I've run a few with a decent Open dog and it's tough on them. The walls put pressure on the dogs as does the noise. The sheep act oddly too. I think it takes a level-headed dog to do well in an arena unless you are going to run it where you get to walk around the course with the dog wearing sheep to you the entire time, in which case - why bother?

 

On exhausting sheep with a young dog. I'd discourage it too especially if you are having problems with outruns or the dog has a fair bit of eye. At most trials, the sheep are heading towards the exhaust when you send the dog. This encourages dogs to pull up short. Plus, you have the confounding influence of what ever the competing dog decides to do with the sheep. It can screw a young dog up. It's like trying to train outruns on sheep that are halfway up the field before the dog gets a quarter way too them. It does more harm than good.

 

Thanks Pearse. That makes sense.

 

I'd work on training until you can run a decent PN course before you trial. The training is always the goal and the fun. The trialling is the test of how well the training is going. Most people are in too much of a rush to trial (in my opinion).

 

Well, I'll take advantage of novice classes at trials to accomplish that same goal with my younger dog—to test how well the training is going. I don't have the opportunity to get out to a whole lot of different places to train, so trialing shows me the areas we need to work on (because he always looks great at "home") and gets both of us a little more used to working under that kind of pressure. I do think I was in too much of a rush before, and sort of glossed over some elementary aspects of his training in an effort to move faster along. So we went back and did a bunch of retraining, and this is where we are right now. I don't mind skipping the arena trial to run just Craig at this field trial, if we can get in, but I'd still try to run Taz in novice classes of field trials if they were offered. Next year, hopefully we'll be ready for pro-novice

[hsnrs]

Our BC trainer trialed our Aussie in ASCA in the a.m. and a AHBA ranch trial in the p.m. Sat and Sun a few weeks ago. It was fun to watch the difference. Alfie enjoyed the ranch trial and did better. JMO

[kelpiegirl]

Laura

You just need to come out to the north east during the summer and hit all the trials you want!!!! Seriously- if you would think that would be doable- there is space in my humble abode- and that would get ME out to more too

[Laurae]

Laura

You just need to come out to the north east during the summer and hit all the trials you want!!!! Seriously- if you would think that would be doable- there is space in my humble abode- and that would get ME out to more too

 

Don't tempt me, Julie--I just might take you up on it!

[DTrain]

I would rather do a field trial any day however in my part of the world we have winter. I have used arenas for practice. I have been to an arena trials but my best dog does not do well, he prefers open space. I would not have considered this until recently but I am looking at getting my youngest dog into more things and I will try arenas with him. I am torn because I would also never pass up the opportunity to work with two or more of my dogs, I would do both but in this case since you can only do one give the arena a shot.

[Shoofly]

Don't tempt me, Julie--I just might take you up on it!

 

Now there ya go, come on over this way and do an eastern trial tour. Heck, we might even send you home with another dog or two.

[Laurae]

Now there ya go, come on over this way and do an eastern trial tour. Heck, we might even send you home with another dog or two.

 

Ohhhhh, you guys are killing me!

[Laurae]

Hooray! I got into the field trial! Craig and I are going to kick some butt!

[Nancy Bovee]

Hi, I own Taz's evil twin, Earl. I don't have an open dog, but Earl ran in a couple arena trials last summer with another handler (who he obeys). He did ok, but it was too intense for me!

 

But I think the pressures of an arena trial aren't what you want to "test" now. Won't you have added nerves in an arena situation? I would run my open dog for the fun/thrill of it, and enter Taz with a relaxed attitude of "stop when it feels like the right time to stop."

 

I'm noticing that Earl is really advancing and working well in the open, but has major issues in tight spaces which gives me issues. I don't know if they are really that much alike, but I just felt this kinship with a talented, intense, but complicated dog.....

 

I'm going into the arena trials with my young unfortuneately going deaf dog (2) who could use some exposure to different situations. I'm definitely not really competing - just training in a testing situation.

 

Gosh, I'd love to have some pleasant open hills to roam and work...

 

Nancy

[Pearse]

I'm going into the arena trials with my young unfortuneately going deaf dog (2) who could use some exposure to different situations. I'm definitely not really competing - just training in a testing situation.

 

I understand that many people have limited access to training facilities, and I know that exposing dogs to different situations is a good thing. What I'm about to say (which is just my opinion) is in no way a personal criticism of Nancy since I don't know her or her dogs. However...

 

Trials are the absolute worst environment to try to do any kind of training.

 

You are paying close to what you would pay for an hour or more of sheep time somewhere for between 30s and 5 minutes (if you are a Novice), and even Open runs (averaging $45/run now) are only 10 minutes in most cases.

 

The travel expenses are the same, more in most cases.

 

The minute you leave the post to "train" your dog, the run is over and the "training moment" is past meaning your correction will be late. You can't set the situation up again so that you can intervene at the right time to prevent the unwanted behavior, or shape the desired behavior.

 

You can't "train in a testing situation". You can only test - and then react, usually late and inappropriately when the dog fails the test. The fact that there are a dozen to several hundred people watching doesn't help.

 

There are too many people trying to "train" on the trial field. It's resulting in a lot of dogs out there who aren't ready which is resulting in too much rough work on an ever-diminishing pool of available stock.

 

A trial is a test of a trained dog.

 

Let's say you have a dog that will do a 100 yard gather at home, and always stops when you ask for a stop, and has beautiful flanks - at home. He's good for about 50 yards at a trial and if he doesn't have a dead on stop, and beautiful flanks at home, you're never going to get them at a trial which means he's not ready.

 

So which is the better investment? Spend 2 x $30 for 2 minutes on the trial field with no hope of doing any real training, or find someone the same distance from you who'll take $60 for 2 x 30 min or 2 x 60 min to let you do some real training on strange ground with strange sheep where you can set up problem areas and work through them several times.

[kelpiegirl]

Pearse

I agree with what you say. Training is not for trials. But, there is an element of engendering confidence and comfort on the trial field, by both the dog and handler, no? Yes, if you haven't got it at home, you aren't going to get it in the trial, but who's dogs are spot on perfect every single time you work them? I submit, no ones'. I learned a hard lesson at a trial, regarding MY behaviour recently, and there is just no way I could have ever expected what to have happened to do so- after working only on a trial field. At the novice level, many of us train diligently, and really want it down pat before we get out there- and we do. Then, our inexperienced dogs, who at the training field look like conductors of the orchestra of sheep, become well, more like mosh pitters. I am just trying to say, that I do think that most of us novice folks don't hop out onto the field and just hope for the best.

[Pearse]

Pearse

I agree with what you say. Training is not for trials. But, there is an element of engendering confidence and comfort on the trial field, by both the dog and handler, no? Yes, if you haven't got it at home, you aren't going to get it in the trial, but who's dogs are spot on perfect every single time you work them?

 

 

I agree with you and totally get this. Trust me, I've had my fair share of wrecks on the trial field and trialling definitely shows up the holes in dogs' training. That's what trials are supposed to do.

 

But, if I had a nickel for every time I've heard someone saying they were going to a trial to get their dog some "experience or training" on different sheep, I'd be able to afford a tank or two of gas. I'm not talking about someone who takes a well trained dog out to their first trial where both the dog and the handler have a case of nerves and the run is a wreck. I'm talking about a situation where the dog is marginal at best on its home turf; the outrun is tight and there's no control past 50 yards, there's no solid down or recall on the dog, the flanks are sketchy. And then the handler gets convinced that taking the dog and trialling will be good for the dog and will help with some of those issues because all the dog needs is experience with different sheep.

 

I'm not discouraging people from trialling. I'm just saying that if the dog isn't rock solid on familiar ground, you might be better off spending your money on training than trialling until he is if your goal is training a better dog because trials are a terrible place to try to fix stuff.

 

Pearse