Discipline

[r b m]

I was wondering how some of you approach discipline while training stock work? Are you a perfection Nazi or do you give positive reinforcement until the dog "gets it." What do you do if you dog seems to have forgotten something it did perfectly 100 times before? What do you do if your dog isn't listening or blowing you off? Do you yell at it or just use a firm tone? Do you ever scruff or alpha roll your dog?

 

I have seen various techniques used, myself included. I will get after my dog and make a point. And sure enough she'll give me what I originally asked(perfectly), but it has no resonance. By our next session, we typically have to start all over again... like a broken record.

[Ali C]

I was wondering how some of you approach discipline while training stock work? Are you a perfection Nazi or do you give positive reinforcement until the dog "gets it." What do you do if you dog seems to have forgotten something it did perfectly 100 times before? What do you do if your dog isn't listening or blowing you off? Do you yell at it or just use a firm tone? Do you ever scruff or alpha roll your dog?

 

I have seen various techniques used, myself included. I will get after my dog and make a point. And sure enough she'll give me what I originally asked(perfectly), but it has no resonance. By our next session, we typically have to start all over again... like a broken record.

 

 

I tend to believe that when you're training stock work if the dog isn't giving you what you want, then YOU are probably "wrong"- in the sense that you are in the wrong position, the dog is way out of position to perform the task, or your asking the dog to do something from too far away. I tend to expect to get what I asked for, but I will do whatever I need to in order to help the dog be successful. As far as not doing something perfect he's done a 100 times before- don't we ALL occassionally screw up something that is "routine". (today I killed my stick-shift truck backing up to the feedstore dock & I've been driving a stick since I learned to drive...) If he's continuely doing something he was once familiar with incorrectly, then I would take the time to problem-solve that. There was a thread that covered that type of thing last week.

If a dog is blowing me off, I'll give a reminder (maybe 2) that he better listen. (usually the dog's name said harshly- or the good 'ol AYE) If he chooses not to listen, then I go to him and remind him. I've been taught (thankfully!) to go to the dog- and go quietly. When I get there, I put my hand on his collar and very quietly, but right in his face ask him if he has lost his mind. Many times, after I've made my presence known, I'll ask for the previous task again- but at a much closer distance. If I get it beautifully, I may go back to the distance at which he blew me off, or I may just end the session with the beautiful, but closer at hand performance.

I don't own any dogs that require a scruff during training- but I suppose some do. All of my dogs I've raised from puppyhood, so our relationship is very well established by the time they are working stock, so all I need to do is grumble right up close to make a *very* big impression. I tend to prefer biddable, team-player type dogs, so I've maybe got it easier here than some people do.

As far as not retaining things, I'm not sure if you mean she is again blowing you off, or if you mean you have to do the same training exercise over and over.

 

Ali

[Pearse]

I start from the assumption that the dog always wants to do the correct thing as he/she perceives it, so discipline isn't really necessary. What is required is to let the dog know that what it is doing is not what I want it to do, and provide the opportunity for it to do the correct thing, or teach the dog to trust me that what I'm asking is going to work out OK even though it feels not-quite-right to the dog.

 

For example, I'm training inside and off-balance flanks on a young dog. I know that the dog knows come-bye from away-to-me, but often when I ask for a come-bye flank he goes to give me an away-to-me. Is he being "willful" or "disobedient" and in need of discipline? I think not. In his mind, the flank to balance is the correct move, or perhaps he is feeling some pressure from the sheep or the environment to go that way.

 

My response is to give a strong "lie down" and then ask for the correct flank again (asking nicely not yelling), repeating the lie down if he even looks in the wrong direction. If he doesn't get it by the second time, I might give him a hint using body language. He'll get it and give the flank much the happier for figuring it out on his own IF the resulting flank does not lose him control of his sheep (the importance of setting up the right move in the right circumstance). I think that the dogs learn very like us, and figuring a work situation out for themselves imprints the lesson much stronger than rote learning. As for having to start over again at each session, sometimes it seems that way. Progress is incremental and sometimes in very small increments until one day they just "get it". I think some of that is a lack of enough real work to let the dogs learn in a non-structured, low-pressure environment by working hours every day. We try to cram 8 hours a day of learning into 3 or 4 hourly sessions a week, and it doesn't work very well. I think someone who has daily work for a dog can get training on him in three to six months. Those of us who don't might take a year or two to get to the same level.

 

Think of it like trying to learn an instrument. If you only got to practice during your one hour a week lesson, your progress would be slow. If you get to practice/play with the instrument two hours a day with no instructor breathing down your neck, you'll progress faster.

 

If I really feel like he's blowing me off, I'll just put him up. It's usually a sign of fatigue (mental - his or mine) or that the training situation is not set up properly for what I'm trying to train. Many times I've become frustrated with my dog only to realize in hindsight that there was something I was not seeing that was completely messing up the lesson (which in turn became my lesson for the day).

 

I have a "correction voice" (a growly 'HEY') to discourage things I don't like (diving in, or unnecessary grips) but the only times I've had to lay hands on a dog was to correct for inappropriate behavior towards other dogs off sheep.

 

That's been my vast experience from working with 2 or 3 dogs over the past four years so take it for what it is worth!

 

Pearse

[kelpiegirl]

Sometimes it isn't discipline as in the act of doling out so much; rather, it is discipline in how we work our dogs. If a dog goes back to doing something wrong each time you go back, and when they did that last, you disciplined them, then you need to look at what happened before that dog did that. Is there some sort of habit that the dog has picked up? I know I inadvertently let Lucy know that she had a few free rides before I would stop the behaviour (I was worried about upsetting her, or being too hard on her, because I didn't know how to affect change in her behaviour). That got her into the habit of doing some bad things, then I chastise her, and then we are fine. When I finally realized the error of my ways, things have gotten 100% better. No, she is not perfect, but as I mentioned in that bonny day of training- this dog had several weeks off, but behaved for me from the get go. I broke that cycle. So, I would think about what happens when you work her- before you even go in the field, and what you normally do, and see where there is a kink in your requirements/processes and go from there.

[Chesney's Girl]

With Chesney, who is my first dog I've worked on stock and started myself, is handled pretty much how Pearse said they work their dogs. I find that my presence and tone of voice go along way with him. Most Border Collies are pretty in tune and up to speed with their owners that usually a harsh correction with their voice is enough.

 

As far as blowing you off. Chesney does this and usually all it takes is a "Hey" or "hello!?!?" and he give me a look as to say right boss I just missed that I'll get it right this time. Most days working him are great and he has a few off days (but when he's off he's way off and the training session usually doesn't last long from my patients). Its usually either he is not there mentally for the precision training, but is able to execute simple chores so thats what we do on those days and the next time we go work he's fired up and tuned into me and his stock, so maybe on the days that it seems to be an off day, do chores that the dog knows how to do. That way you are still working them and helping them work through those off days...