Laurae Posted February 18, 2008 Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 I was just wondering what people's thoughts are on moving up a class. Here in the west, or at least my part of the west, there are pretty much four classes at most trials: open; pro-novice/open ranch; nursery; and novice. (Many trials have only two classes, open and P-N/OR, but I'm not concerned with those right now.) I have been trialing Taz in the novice class, and we've been in one field trial and two arena trials. I have trialed Craig in one trial, an arena trial, not long after I got him last summer. I keep hearing how you shouldn't stay in novice for very long and I can't actually trial Craig in novice, even if I wanted to. But it feels like pro-novice/open ranch is such a giant step up from novice. How do you know when you're ready? Should you wait until you feel confident that the dog will do well? I would have thought so, but some folks have told me I should be trialing Taz in pro-novice/OR because (even though I don't always have the control on him I need to do well) the novice class is, well, not a waste of time exactly, but maybe not a very productive class. I've heard many say that somehow we will rise up to the level of the higher class if we compete in it. I don't know, though--some of the pro-novice/OR courses are huge, with the only difference between this class and the open class course being the lack of a shed. Taz is clearly nowhere near ready for that, but I'm afraid Craig isn't either. Well, Craig is, but I am not ready to handle him on a course like that. I suppose it is different for those of you who are already open handlers, since I feel like so much of our non-readiness is due to my own lack of handling skills. Anyway, I don't really know what I'm asking exactly--I'm just wondering how people evaluate the readiness of their dogs and/or their abilities as a handler for trial classes (especially since the entries are due months and months before the actual trials take place). ETA: And if you're reading this and thinking "Well, it sounds like you're probably just not ready to trial, period," I'd welcome that opinion, too! The whole process just seems a bit mysterious to me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted February 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 Thanks to everyone who sent me private replies! They were very helpful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
workindogs Posted February 18, 2008 Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 I suppose it is different for those of you who are already open handlers, since I feel like so much of our non-readiness is due to my own lack of handling skills. Anyway, I don't really know what I'm asking exactly--I'm just wondering how people evaluate the readiness of their dogs and/or their abilities as a handler for trial classes (especially since the entries are due months and months before the actual trials take place). Laurae Some of us Open handlers were once Novice and ProNovice handlers and remember the angst. When I first started out, I trained and trained with a woefully Pre-Novice dog that was never going to make it to Novice....after awhile I had the opportunity to buy a good Open dog and HAD to start in ProNovice....so I never really did Novice, so never had the chance to establish it as my safety zone. ProNovice in the West (like CO) is generally pretty big.....I just sent my dog and hoped for the best. Fortunately, he was a good dog and took care of me. I'm not sure where Craig is in this scheme of things...I seem to recall he is an Open dog? An older dog?....does/do your mentor(s) encourage you to move up? If you think you need to "do good" before you move up, then you will be hopelessly stuck where you are....the bigger challenge will move your skills up a notch. If Craig is capable of the test, then step up to the plate...the decision is little different, if the dog is not ready or too inexperienced. In my case, I deliberated and stalled on my move from PN to Open......everyone was pestering me, but I had yet to do more than mediocre in PN so I couldn't justify "moving up" when we were so pathetic in PN. I just didn't get it when Open mentors were telling me that Black was an Open dog and I needed to move up to show his best abilities. It wasn't until I moved to Open that I understood that for a good trained dog, the Novice courses simply aren't big enough. The Open course showcased my dog's incredible scope, his beautiful lines and gave him time take control of his stock and enough space to work at an appropriate distance. Whereas, the PN was too short to establish control and magnified pressures. The move up is terrifying, but for the most part (barring special circumstances) I would generally advise that a person trial to the level of the dog as soon as possible....you are wasting your dog's ability and an opportunity to learn. Shortly after I made the plunge, another fellow PN handler (with a former Open dog) began getting pestered about moving up.....he used the same excuses I did (and you are "But, I'm not ready"), but held out longer....finally he made the move and within a couple of trials was winning and in Double Lifts. Like my dog, his dog needed the Open field to reach full potential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airbear Posted February 18, 2008 Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 Total rookie story here. When I bought Lou as a two year-old, he had been bumped to Open through our move-up rules. I, having never run a dog, could start in PN with him. We ran in 3 PN trials our first year, and cross-entered in our 4th trial that year in PN and Open. Guess what - that meant that we had to run Open from that point forward! So after 4 trials, and having never run NN with any dog, I was now an "Open" handler <insert guffaw here>. Similar to Elizabeth's experience, I have found that my dog does better on the bigger courses. He has a gorgeous, deep outrun, loves to shed, and the longer drive and cross-drive gives us more of a chance to find a line and commit to it. In PN here, the first leg of the drive can be quite short, and the gates seem to appear shortly after you make the turn. In PN, we didn't set the world on fire, and that trend is continuing in Open. However, we usually get around the course and the amount I have learned by chatting with the open handlers (especially in exhaust - it's like a clinic in there!) has been invaluable. I have found the open handlers to be generous with their advice, and sympathetic when things go sideways. I have seen only one NN trial here, and I don't think we would do that well in one of those. A 75 yard outrun, single leg drive 50 yards away ... not much room for bobbles! Nothing against NN courses, just not something my dog would excel at. In retrospect, I am glad that my ignorance of move-up rules "forced" me to run Open so early in our career. I don't know that I would have learned so much, nor pushed myself and my dog, had I stayed in PN. Just my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pippin's person Posted February 19, 2008 Report Share Posted February 19, 2008 Thanks to everyone who sent me private replies! They were very helpful Could you summarize the private replies? I'm also curious about this issue. One of the things I feel will keep me in novice this season is that I'm not yet competent/confident with driving (nor is my dog with me as the handler--he's fine with a trainer who knows what she's doing) and that's a required component in P-N but an option in N-N. I have wondered whether I should trial at all right now as I'm learning (I've done 2 with Hamish, plus a fun trial), but in the two I did with Hamish, I found that it really honed my focus and taught me a lot, so I'll keep doing it this season. I've also been told we should move up quickly so as to up our game--but it really doesn't feel like time for me (poor Hamish would likely be fine with a competent trainer). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted February 19, 2008 Report Share Posted February 19, 2008 I have seen only one NN trial here, and I don't think we would do that well in one of those. A 75 yard outrun, single leg drive 50 yards away ... not much room for bobbles! Nothing against NN courses, just not something my dog would excel at. In retrospect, I am glad that my ignorance of move-up rules "forced" me to run Open so early in our career. I don't know that I would have learned so much, nor pushed myself and my dog, had I stayed in PN. Just my opinion. I think Kristi makes some very good points here. I started in N/N (here in the east there are four classes: N/N, which in this area has a one-leg wear and then back to the pen; P/N which has a slightly longer outrun and a one-legged drive, sometimes a short crossdrive--maybe to the fetch panel, and back to the pen; open ranch, which is the open course minus the shed; and open) with a rescue dog (Willow). We were indeed both rank novices. I stayed in N/N one trial season and then moved up. Stayed in P/N one trial season (at that time we were fortunate to have Steve Clendenin's novice series and so I was able to run ranch noncompete while still running P/N). That original dog had a bad experience unrelated to sheep work and pretty much quit working. The other dog I had at the time was never going to make it above P/N because of confidence issues. The next dog I had was Twist. We ran in N/N in something like three trials (the first trial was ugly, we won both of the next two). Moved to P/N in early spring of one year and finished out that season in P/N. We ran the next season in P/N and nursery (Twist was not yet 2 then and I didn't want to push too hard--we had run nursery toward the end of the previous season, but a novice handler running a talented youngster can result in putting too much pressure on the youngster, as I discovered the hard way). By the following season, though, since we had already spent a season running nursery (equivalent to ranch) I didn't see the point in moving to ranch, so we went straight to open. I had a retired open dog given to me when Twist was still a youngster. I ran her in P/N in three trials I think just to learn to run her, and then moved her to ranch for several trials. There was nearly a year interlude when she was injured and being rehabbed. When I got her going again, we moved on in to open because the whole point of having her was to be able to learn to run an open course with an experienced dog (and I was afraid if I didn't take the chance while I had it and she was again able to work that I might not get the chance at all). I ran my first open run with her in May, and by the following August had moved Twist up too. When you move up depends on both you and your dog. I could never have hurried those first two trial dogs along (and neither would have made open dogs anyway), but I went at a faster pace with Twist. Now that I am more experienced, I could probably move a dog through the ranks even more quickly, depending on whether the dog could manage it mentally. I truly believe that if you are blessed with an open dog you should take every chance to learn to run open with that dog. Starting in the lower classes can help you "get together" with the dog and build your confidence, but as someone else said, if you don't ever stretch yourself, then you'll really never reach your full potential either and I really don't see what you gain by staying in the lower classes for any length of time. If you are running in the lower classes and doing well, you should consider moving up (if you're running a trained dog). It's like having a schoolmaster dressage horse--the point is to let the experienced animal take you through to the top levels and teach you the ropes. When you don't go to the post worrying about whether your dog can even find the sheep, much less make it around the course, you can concentrate on learning to handle, and that's the greatest value of an open dog. It's also true that the greater distances involved to give you more time to correct lines and fix other things as they happen. On the lower course (mainly N/N and P/N) the dog really doesn't have the time to get "hold" of the sheep to really be able to work them effectively IMO. Going from one of the much smaller courses to a bigger course is a bit scary, but once you've done it and see how much more time you have to get things right, you'll wonder why you ever wasted so much time on the little courses. As someone else mentioned there's also often a lot more pressure on a small course than on a large course. Not too long ago, I took Lark to a trial where I ran her in P/N. She sometimes mixes up her flanks, and on a short P/N course that can be disastrous to your line. Later that day we did fun runs and I ran a full open course with her. Yes, we had some bobbles, and it likely wouldn't have been a winning run had it been an actual competitve open class, but we had loads of space in which to fix those bobbles, and in the end we got quite a lovely shed. Had I not tried it with her, I wouldn't know what she's capable of. Now I do! Obviously if you're still having wrecks at whatever level you're running, you're not ready to move up, but the converse of that is that if you're having success at whatever level you're running, then you might want to consider moving up. You'll learn more and become a better handler by challenging yourself a bit. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokjbc Posted February 19, 2008 Report Share Posted February 19, 2008 Hi, Definitely not an expert or accomplished anything but I did move up to Open recently and maybe a bit too soon but I think it worked out fine in retrospect. With a minimum 5 hour trip to any trial, usually much more, for me it was about getting my dog on the field doing as much as she could do. I rarely get to more than 3-4 trials per year- but my dog is trained to Open level, if not necessarily competitive. Shedding is one of our few good points and most of the Pro-Novice courses were not a huge difference in outrun/drive distance. The exception was of a one trial where they just did one drive leg in Pro-Novice- that left me feeling cheated after being in the rain for three days straight . Closely following that trial, I spend two full days watching Open and Nursery to have both dogs have heart breaking runs in ProNovice ARGH !! That was a long drive home and again- not much of a difference in distance between the courses and the main difference for me was that if I had entered in Open, I could have brought both dogs back a second day for another, hopefully more productive run. I am not advocating using trials to train my dogs- that is not the point- they were trained and doing work at that level, but were I am at, getting variety of fields and stock is near impossible. So we made our first Open debut with the result of one day not finding sheep (my bad!- took for granted my natural outrunner could figure it out) and second day barely finding sheep but managing to get through the shed and the lowest Open score (a score! Yeah!). Nothing at all to brag about but enough was there to make the drive home bearable and to give me a good idea of where we need to go. So for me, it's not about the score or whatever- its getting as much done as we can on course- I hope the rest will fall into place and I go out there ready to walk off if we are wasting people's time or my dog is in trouble. I'm lucky to have a real calm, biddable dog that really is the least of my worries- usually it's my nerves that screw it up and that will be true in any class. Right now we are having a dilemna with my SO- his dog is almost ready for Pro-Novice. He can do the outrun length but the drives will be touch and go. Problem is we can't find a trial that I can compete in Open and he can start in Novice- he already missed several opportunities due to work and now we can't find anything for both of us within reasonable distance. So he is considering starting in Pro-Novice with the goal of a good OLF and what he can get without getting his dog in trouble on the drives- fully ready to retire if his dog is in over his head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted February 19, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2008 Wow, I'm glad people are responding publicly now The private responses I got basically were conflicting. One person said what Kristi and Julie said--that the shorter courses were in some ways more difficult for younger dogs because they feel a lot more pressure and there isn't really enough room to recover if the sheep go offline at all. But also that I should make sure I have control on my dog before leaving the novice class. And I was told that I should wait until my dog is running (at home) at least one level past the level of the trial class. It's been helpful to hear when others made the decision to move up and how they arrived at those decisions. I think that p/n class in the east might be where I belong with Taz, but we don't really have that here, so novice is our best option because, well, we do still wreck sometimes at longer distances . I am working on getting a better handle on Taz and I have been told that once I get more consistent control on him, we may progress much faster. Craig is a different story. He is a trained dog, but only sort of. He has run in a couple of open trials with his former handler, but I don't think he finished any of them. His outruns can be tight and slicy, and he has a tendency to want to do his own thing out there. This is obviously partly to do with my clumsy handling. He is not a dog who wouldn't be able to find his sheep, but I have trouble driving with him because he usually turns the sheep back to me. So it's handler error. I am definitely not ready for open with him (I haven't the foggiest clue how to shed), but I suppose we should trial in open ranch. I guess I need to start working with him in much bigger areas... The people I work with here have mostly encouraged us to move up, but I think that may be because they see the dogs working with them helping me—not so much me on my own. (It's not quite as pretty when we work on our own, and throw in nerves and a new place, and, well, .) Plus, they tend to say "oh, keep working and by the time the trial season comes, you'll be fine," which feels sort of like counting my chickens before they're hatched. It's not about the score for me at all; for now at least, it's about getting around the course. But everyone does seem to agree that though they may not have been ready to move up, they progressed much faster once they did so they do not regret it. Hmm. I feel like I can't wait to move out of novice, but I don't want to completely embarrass myself either. And, to be completely honest here, one person whose opinion I value has seen us work occasionally (usually when we have wrecked, sigh), and I think she believes we should stay in novice for now, so...maybe I am just trying to run before I can fully walk. Maybe if we win some novice trials I can think about moving Taz up. As for Craig, well, my choices are to run in pro-novice/open ranch, run in novice as noncompete (which seems silly, since our novice trials usually don't have any type of drive at all), or not run at all (but he is 9, so I don't want to waste too much time with him). I guess I don't really have much of a choice with him after all... Anyway, thanks again for the stories and words of wisdom, folks. Obviously I'm still struggling with it. Sometimes, it seems like everyone else breezes through novice in half a minute, while it feels like you'll be stuck there forever . It's nice to hear why that sometimes is at least... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appyridr Posted February 20, 2008 Report Share Posted February 20, 2008 When I bought Lou as a two year-old, he had been bumped to Open through our move-up rules. I, having never run a dog, could start in PN with him. We ran in 3 PN trials our first year, and cross-entered in our 4th trial that year in PN and Open. Guess what - that meant that we had to run Open from that point forward! Hi Kristie, The BCSDA move up rules are as follows: "A dog must move to the Open Class in the following calendar year: a) after having placed 7 times in the top 1/3 of a P/N class of 10 dogs or more, or after having placed 2 times in the top ½ of an Open class of 10 dogs or more in sanctioned trials" So why did you 'have' to move up to Open, you could have stayed in P/N all of last year? But I think you made the right choice, you have not looked out of place in Open. cheers Lani Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airbear Posted February 20, 2008 Report Share Posted February 20, 2008 The BCSDA move up rules are as follows: "A dog must move to the Open Class in the following calendar year: a) after having placed 7 times in the top 1/3 of a P/N class of 10 dogs or more, or after having placed 2 times in the top ½ of an Open class of 10 dogs or more in sanctioned trials" So why did you 'have' to move up to Open, you could have stayed in P/N all of last year? Hi Lani, Lou got bumped out of PN his first year with Diana, so he was a "pro". As long as he ran with a "novice", then he could run PN (that is, one of the team is a pro and the other is a novice). The definition of a novice handler is one who has never run a dog in Open. So when I went to the post in Open at Holly's trial at the end of 2006, I lost my novice status. Now we were both "pro" so up to Open. Like I said, I'm absolutely fine with it. Lou really is an Open dog, and I'm just riding his magnificent coattails. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appyridr Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 Lou got bumped out of PN his first year with Diana, so he was a "pro". As long as he ran with a "novice", then he could run PN (that is, one of the team is a pro and the other is a novice). The definition of a novice handler is one who has never run a dog in Open. So when I went to the post in Open at Holly's trial at the end of 2006, I lost my novice status. Now we were both "pro" so up to Open. Like I said, I'm absolutely fine with it. Lou really is an Open dog, and I'm just riding his magnificent coattails. Thumping side of head....ah ha I get it! I was thinking of teams that cross-entered sometimes for several years....but they were both 'novice' - dog and handler. And you ride a fine coattail! :-) Lani Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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