Making and Asking

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I'll present this in the form of a dialog to lighten the topic a bit. My apologies to anyone whose actions or intentions misrepresented in the translation to this format. This is kind of how I started seeing things, this weekend at the Jack Knox clinic. I believe what I did to Ted was an error in what I needed to do to break Ted of some of his bad habits like rushing the sheep and freelancing.

 

Act I Shoofly Farm. Robin walks with Ted towards sheep.

Ted: See ya! Wheee!

Robin: Hey! Lie down!

Ted: Did someone say something? Wheee!

Robin: Hey you, do you hear me? Ted, TED!

Ted: Oh crap. That wasn't fun.

Robin: That'll do

Ted: All right, I know what that means.

Robin: That's it. Okay, if you got that out of your system . . .

Ted: See ya! Wheeeee!

Robin: Hey! Lie down!

Ted: Ack. I think she means it.

Robin: You lie down!

Ted: Yup, she means it.

Robin: That'll do.

Ted: Okay, what if I come halfway then . . .see ya . .

Robin: NO! Lie down. That'll do.

Ted: *Sigh* No payoff here. Let's see what happens if I just be patient.

Robin: Shhhh.

Ted: Yay! Sheep!

 

Act II: My Farm, a few days later.

Ted dashing to the sheep as we go through the gate: See ya! Whee!

Me running to him: Hey, uh, HEY - NO, stop, TED, that'll do, that'll do!

Ted: Um, whatever.

Me blocking the sheep: You listen! That'll do TED that'll do!

Ted: Well, okay, since I can't do anything else now. Hey, you are kind of good at that game. Let's see how good you are.

 

Rinse, repeat, over the course of a couple months until Ted's been successful more than he's not, his eyes are spinning like pinwheels each time we go to sheep, and I'm tenser than a turkey at Thanksgiving. My timing's improved just enough to make this dangerous - I can cut him off, keep him from the sheep most times, but if you can see the difference in the two vignettes described above, you win the prize. It's a button that says, "I'm a better stockdog trainer than Becca." There's a great number of these however.

 

Act II: Jack Knox clinic, last weekend

Ted: See ya! Wheee!

Jack: HeyLieDownYOUTedYouListenArrrrrrrrrr . . .

Ted: Holy crap! He's way better at this game than the Meat Lady.

Jack: Lie down.

Ted: Okay. Maybe.

Jack: Come bye.

Ted: Wheeeee!

Jack: HeyLieDown.

Ted: Nahh, more fun over here.

Jack: You think that's fun? You think we're playing?

Ted: Ack. Okay, we are not playing.

Jack: That'll do.

Ted: Fooled ya! Wheeeee!

Jack: HEYHEYliedown.

Ted: Maybe.

Jack: DO YOU THINK I'M PLAYING?

Ted: Ack.

Jack: Liedown. That'll do. That's my boy!

Ted: You are strange and scary.

Jack: Away to me.

Ted: Whe---

Jack: Heeeeey . . . .

Ted: Uh oh.

Jack: Away.

Ted: Whew, okay. Sheep!

Jack: Lie down.

Ted: Okay!

Jack: That'll do, let's go over here . . .

Ted: Ha, you are strange and scary and I'm going to go chase these sheep! Whe---

Jack: AHHHHLieDown.

Ted: Hmm. Okay.

Jack: Shhhh.

Ted: Cool! Sheep! Not so scary!

 

Fade to black.

 

What struck me was the fact that Jack would ask for something right after the correction which leaves the dog wide open to choose something right or wrong. Robin did this too, I'm pretty sure (she can correct me if I'm wrong). It was HEY and then right away an "ask". Somehow I turned that into a "make" - I'd chase Ted around, prevent him from getting the sheep, until I was literally physically blocking him from the sheep, laying him down before sending him. I forgot to leave room for him to do something right. Hello.

 

It all looked pretty good as long as nothing went wrong. However, I wasn't teaching him to handle pressure, because the message he was getting was, I can make him behave most of the time, but it's a game where sometimes he might be able to "win" and take over.

 

I have to make it very clear that the mistake came out of my own pea brain and does not reflect on Robin's instruction. In fact I attribute the fact that I was able to decipher this calmly, this weekend, without ending up in my usual state of tears, to her work with me.

 

I welcome comments and corrections, if you've had the patience to stick with me through this long post!

[kelpiegirl]

Becca

I waded through it- and I am confused, sort of.... What in a nutshell did you epiphanize with? I know what you mean by asking versus making, but... I do have a headache, so maybe that's it..

[Chesney's Girl]

I understood this well. Then again it helped that I've been to a his clinic about a month ago.

 

I'll try to give it a shot at what she meant to help, as I can see where that might be pretty confusing to read.

 

The first two dialogues were before Jack's clinic and she was showing the difference in her working with Ted and Robin working with Ted. Robin would get after Ted then ask for something and give him the choice to do the right thing. If he didn't do the right thing, there was another correction (when she takes him off sheep with That'll do) Then she sends him again (reward for quitting when asked) and until he could choose to lie down when asked he was repeatedly taken off the sheep.

 

At Jack's he was asked to Lie down. If he didn't do as asked there was a correction (Hey what are you doing??? ) Finally I assume Ted got the idea of listening when asked to do something (correct me if I am just reading between the lines too much)

 

I have noticed this with Chesney since we've been working after the clinic. Chesney is much more readily taking a correction and you can actually see his little brains working. He is finally learned his flanks where as before he just wasn't getting or was paying too much attention to me instead of just listening to me. He would watch where I was for the que to do something. If he does something wrong there is the correction then I ask him again. If he doesn't choose right then another correction. When he finally does choose right. Good dog! then we proceed with work. Its really amazing to me just how fast he is learning new things now.

 

Becca I know what you mean and how cool it is when you finally realize how to fix something you are doing and in turn really helps your dog.

 

I hope that helps some....

[juliepoudrier]

Danielle,

You've got it right. What Becca's saying is that both Robin and Jack were correcting Ted for being wrong and then stepping back and letting him have the chance to make a choice again, right or wrong, and then either correcting for the wrong or letting him have his sheep for the right.

 

Where Becca made her mistake was that while Jack and Robin made the correction and then immediately asked Ted to do something, giving him the choice of doing it right or not, Becca made the correction and then tried to force (through her body pressure, voice, whatever) Ted to do the right thing (in her words making him lie down and physically blocking him from the sheep). In other words, once she corrected him for doing something wrong, say, taking off after the sheep, she then would put both him and herself in a position that would try to make him do the right thing. In the process she was preventing him from doing anything, which was causing him to build tension, which then of course played itself out by Ted trying to beat Becca by diving into the sheep (whee!).

 

J.

[laurie etc]

What struck me was the fact that Jack would ask for something right after the correction which leaves the dog wide open to choose something right or wrong. Robin did this too, I'm pretty sure (she can correct me if I'm wrong). It was HEY and then right away an "ask". Somehow I turned that into a "make" - I'd chase Ted around, prevent him from getting the sheep, until I was literally physically blocking him from the sheep, laying him down before sending him. I forgot to leave room for him to do something right. Hello.

 

It all looked pretty good as long as nothing went wrong. However, I wasn't teaching him to handle pressure, because the message he was getting was, I can make him behave most of the time, but it's a game where sometimes he might be able to "win" and take over.

 

 

I welcome comments and corrections, if you've had the patience to stick with me through this long post!

 

Ya know - I have the same issues with a couple of youngsters - one much worse than the other (she doesn't just wheee, she wheee's, then grips, then flips- kinda like a professional rodeo roper). I have struggled with the same thing- to remember to quickly direct the dog to the right thought and task rather than just concentrate on correcting/blocking for the wrong thought or action. Timing is everything, and the timing is hard! It's REALLY frickin' hard with a KEEN youngster!! Everything happens so fast sometimes. I know in my head that I need to be "relentless" in my insistence that the wrong thought NOT turn into the wrong action, but in "the heat of battle", I'm often way too slow in reading the dog, allowing the dog to regroup and choose the right action - I'm too busy being relentless. I think when that happens, my girl just thinks well, heck, I'll just run faster and try harder to beat the big nagging person in my way. By continuing to just "stop her" instead of a allowing her to come up with an alternative course of action that might be acceptable, she isn't really learning anything (except how fast she needs to go to beat me). This would explain why my instructor can work her just fine, and she doesn't usually even try the shenanigans with him. Hmmm. Anyways, thanks for posting. Good food for thought...

Laurie

[Shoofly]

Robin: NO! Lie down. That'll do.

Ted: *Sigh* No payoff here. Let's see what happens if I just be patient.

Robin: Shhhh.

Ted: Yay! Sheep!

 

Those 4 lines right there are the heart of the whole thing. What earns the dog the ticket to go to work?

[stockdogranch]

Great post, Becca! I laughed out loud, and totally got it! (But, as Danielle said, Jack was just here a month ago). Great thread,

A

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Danielle and Julie's summaries are correct, and Robin's comment is even more succinct. I somehow lost the idea that the point was to make it Not Fun, and replaced it with the idea (because it's so easy for me to slip into this mindset) that my job was to Make Him Listen.

 

I chose the format I did to lay this out because by minimalizing the action, it helps keep the sequence clearer in my own mind. If I try to write this stuff out, I find I get lost in spacial references. Sorry if I confused you, kelpie!Julie.

 

I know you are fairly concrete, so what this translates to, is, this morning I put my lambs in the round pen, walked Ted to the pen off leash, opened the gate wide (he learned his lesson this weekend apparently and did not try anything) instead of squeezing through then "letting" him through, and deliberately stopped without saying anything to Ted.

 

Ted: See ya! Wheeeee!

 

Then I tried the correction/down then really quick got his attention and another down (which he took), then walked away from him while calling him off. I walked to the opposite end of the pen and this time he waited. We had to have a little discussion about how tense he was (Robin told me a few weeks ago to "Do weird things to him" but I hadn't thought to do it on sheep, I'm always scared to do something that will upset the apple cart), which also helped my tension. Then I sent him, had to correct him a bit on the flanks.

 

I did a couple more outruns/calloffs, then we were ready for high school.

 

I asked him to go, then stopped him, then flanked him again. It was SO HARD to remind myself the world wasn't going to end if he didn't do it. He didn't like that the first couple times but he didn't do the nervey blow up the sheep thing - he just said, "Yeah, right." I got to practice the "Listen or you don't get to work" principle again, which I assume is why Jack showed this to me (besides the trust issue). I only did this a couple times then we did some really free work, just doing figure eights and some work on the fence. By the end of this I could call him right to the sheep's noses - so I think we're on the right track here.

 

I kept having to remind myself, "Don't set him up, don't worry about what he's doing, don't try to do stuff to make him right." After eight years of going to Jack's clinics I'm amazed at how ingrained these habits still are. The theme of this clinic was probably "trust your dog" and at the beginning, I was feeling pretty smug, the old veteran who could clearly see what the others would be working on heavily. Ha! Pride goeth before a fall.

[Shoofly]

Danielle and Julie's summaries are correct, and Robin's comment is even more succinct. I somehow lost the idea that the point was to make it Not Fun, and replaced it with the idea (because it's so easy for me to slip into this mindset) that my job was to Make Him Listen.

 

Well, to be fair, it is a little confusing because at least in the scenario you describe at my place, we're rewarding him for choosing to *not* do something - take off on his own to work. If you can think of it as rewarding good choices (letting him go to work once he chooses to relax or not sneak off) and discouraging bad choices (making it very unpleasant with voice corrections and not letting him get to the sheep when he chooses to sneak off), i think it's easier to keep straight.

[Wendy V]

Act I Shoofly Farm. Robin walks with Ted towards sheep.

Ted: See ya! Wheee!

 

Act II: My Farm, a few days later.

Ted dashing to the sheep as we go through the gate: See ya! Whee!

 

To me, it seems as if Ted is not set up correctly in his approach to sheep. Why not put him on a leash and prevent the initial "take off"? Patience learned while walking to and through gates pay big dividends. Helps keeps his mind right before training on sheep begins.

[Shoofly]

Becca is probably typing a response at the same time i am but -- it's not about going through gates, it's about running out and busting the sheep when he's not been released to go work. Not just when he goes through a gate. And the idea is to get his mind right so he doesn't need a leash to keep him under control, he needs self control.

[kelpiegirl]

I had to establish with Lucy way early that she couldn't just go to the sheep. She would prefer I gave her a list of things to do, and she just do them thank-you-very-much

 

When we walk into the field- usually the sheep are far away- so it may be a bit easier, Lucy sticks around me, she may run a little ahead, but not with her eye on the sheep, and when I call her, if she starts getting too far afield, she comes back bouncy, and happy, as if to say "I know mom, but I am just so happy to be here". It is nice, because there is no tension going out to the sheep. The hard thing for her is to just settle with the sheep- that's our next hurdle- she always seems to want to keep moving them keep controlling, and she needs to learn to settle....

[painted_ponies]

it's not about going through gates, it's about running out and busting the sheep when he's not been released to go work. Not just when he goes through a gate. And the idea is to get his mind right so he doesn't need a leash to keep him under control, he needs self control.

 

*nods vigorously* Cuz otherwise, you might one day leave the round pen after your turn at the clinic, dog tagging along like an obedient angel at your heels when she notices the humans forgot to chain the gate after the next person entered. Then she might make a mad dash back into said round pen, knocking aside dog and handler, exploding sheep, and nearly giving the clinician a heart attack.

 

Never mind how I know this.

[kelpiegirl]

Where's the video when you NEED it!

[painted_ponies]

Where's the video when you NEED it!

 

I'm so very happy that Jack Knox doesn't allow video recordings. And that he's got a really good sense of humor.

[kelpiegirl]

Well, who knows- it may have made it onto funniest dog videos or something! I would blame it on the last person out of the pen not shutting that gate right darn it. That's the first rule on a farm you know, harumph!

[Wendy V]

Not just when he goes through a gate. And the idea is to get his mind right so he doesn't need a leash to keep him under control, he needs self control.

 

Of course, Becca. It is just that in this case and how it was presented, it sounds as if the dog needed a little help on self-control. The leash would only be an intermediate step and would prevent the busting away, which is the behavior that was being reinforced.

 

But, hey, I wasn't there, so I could be completely wrong.

[painted_ponies]

I would blame it on the last person out of the pen not shutting that gate right darn it.

 

Er, well, that would've been me. But there was someone going in right after I came out. That guy probably thought some of the people standing around the gate would chain it behind him, cause people had been doing that for each other off and on.

 

So it was just a case of everyone thinking someone else had chained the gate.

 

Except Violet, that is. She knew no one had chained the gate.

 

BCs - it's a real good thing doG didn't give 'em thumbs.

[Chesney's Girl]

And that he's got a really good sense of humor.

 

Indeed he does... lol

 

He was getting the point across to not make someone do something but to ask them and make the wrong choice less appealing, using me as an example at Anna's last month.... First ask was less extreme than the second one that included a water trough haha

 

It was great fun though and learned a lot.

 

Becca I'm glad that you and Ted are heading in the best direction now

[bcnewe2]

The leash would only be an intermediate step and would prevent the busting away, which is the behavior that was being reinforced.

 

I dunno Wendy, with the last thread about taking your dog out on a leash I decided that was the way in which I'd handle my young dog who kept breaking away to get to sheep before I was there. Once there and working she had a brain, but on the way to work, her brain would fall out. So on with the leash....then it turned into taking the leash off and off she'd go, the speeding bullet right out to the sheep. I even tried 2 leashes so I could trick her into thinking I had removed the leash. Smart little devil just stood like an angel till I'd reach down to take the leash off. Zoom there she'd go. I could leave it on but at sometime I have to let go of the rope...so to speak.

 

I've even had her to Jack, but there she was a perfect angel and I took her in with no leash, we were in a round pen (which I don't have here) so she knew there was no getting away with that. So....back to home and the long walk to sheep.

 

I finally realized that Mick the older dog was egging her on. His (bad) habit is to take off to sheep but stop way before he ever gets there and look for me to finish walking the long walk to the sheep. Works for him, but not for little miss bullet butt, she never stops or looks back. so back to sleepless nights thinking what I might be doing wrong.

 

I've put Mick away now when training her, even though my Mommy heart told me this was unfair to do to him...till Hubby laughs and says he just goes to sleep on his chair waiting till we return. So he didn't care but my Mommy head thought he did!

 

Back to bullet dog. I went to a friend/trainer a couple weeks ago and she showed him just how she plays this great speedy game. This big man went tearing down the short field after her, low and behold she stopped dead in her tracks before he ever got to her, turned around came skipping back to him and waited till he sent her. Things went wonderfully after that, least while I was there!

Back to home we went with the trainer saying to me, "quit babying her she can take it" so here comes the game again. The walk is a rather long one, I'm tired, so hubby says why not take the 4 wheeler so you don't have to run the whole way! Yes...that's a great idea. So off I go speeding after her on the big loud 4 wheeler. She screeches to a halt and heads right back to my heels. Lesson learned???

No...but finally I've decided that it's not acceptable, no matter how far I have to go to get her back.

End of story...

Tonight we walked together with her happily jumping around my feet and occasionally looking at where she knows the sheep are waiting for us. She never once decided to test me tonight. It was a great training evening. She's now even doing chores with me. Why, cause I trust her and ASK her to help, but I accept nothing else. It's still up to her, but it's better to be patient than get the correction that she knows will now come each and every time she decides to test me.

 

Wendy, if you can elaborate on how I might have handled the leash situation differently I'd love to hear it, cause I know you are right too, it's just I must have been doing something wrong cause it sure wasn't working for me.

 

I so feel Becca's pain. The little things that we let them get away with add up to the big picture we see down the road. Asking is so much better for my dogs than demanding. But hell on me to be consistent. I so want to MAKE them be right.

 

Go Becca, Go Ted....ask, correct, ask again....trust the dog.....hmmm if only it was as easy to do as it is to think!

 

Kristen

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

ask, correct, ask again....trust the dog.....hmmm if only it was as easy to do as it is to think!

 

So it's been my problem for years. I've signed up to go again in April - we'll see whether I can get my head together before then! Based on this morning's session I'm encouraged.

[Wendy V]

I favor the method used by Derek Scrimgeor, which is guiding the dog to walk behind you as you approach sheep, whether through gates or in the open field. This works starts on leash and then progresses off leash, in any manner you choose, such as dragging a line or insisting that the dog stay with you as you walk, lying down as we enter gates, etc. I have found that it works to keep the dog's mind on me and the work at hand. I have a young dog that makes Ted look like a pussycat, and this exercise has helped our training immensely. It may take several minutes to get to where we are going, but those minutes were spent in obedience to my commands. Imagine the disaster if I had let him run through the gates into sheep totally out of control! I would be fighting that mindset for the entire training time.

 

As for taking my open dog to the post on a leash, which was discussed in another topic, I believe the above exercise would improve the dog as well. Back then, Derek's Scrimgeor's material was not around, so I was not as cued to control the walk to sheep as I am now. Since the dog is turning 9 soon, it is not a training priority, nor will I take a chance and approach a post without the leash. Trialing is too expensive to leave it to chance.

[Bill Fosher]

I'm trying to figure out how to get the "see ya" part before the "wheeee!" I'm so not in the picture that I don't even get that with Fern sometimes.

 

Of course, most her life is one big "wheee!" at the moment. That's what I really need to work on.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I'm trying to figure out how to get the "see ya" part before the "wheeee!" I'm so not in the picture that I don't even get that with Fern sometimes.

 

That's one thing I like about Ted. He's really looking to see whether you care, even when he's at his silliest. That's why this is such a problem I made. The "whee" part is in him to some degree, but not the rest.

 

Once his attitude changes, he's a different dog altogether. Though, that's not true, more like, he looks like a different dog. The tension and the happy relaxed "Okay!" are two sides of the same coin - he's tense, I think, in part because he does want to be right.

 

Ted's at his happiest when he thinks we are working as a team, believe it or not. I was thinking this morning while working that the dive is something that has re-appeared to relieve the tension I've created by putting a wedge between us. If this is true there's other things I can do to help reinforce our teamwork.

 

It's actually an exciting feeling. Lots to do.

[Pippin's person]

Your description of forgetting to make wrong choices "not fun" and instead moving to "I'll make you do what I want" rings completely true for me and I appreciated the way you wrote that out.

 

I keep wondering why my instincts (which are what seem to kick in when I am unsure what to do or panicked--darn them, since they are often wrong) are always toward wanting the dog to do what I say rather than toward wanting the dog to pick the "right" option. Perhaps in a previous life I was a despot....