"Placing" your dog for the outrun

[1sheepdoggal]

I read quite a number of times in another thread about people "placing" thier dog for thier outrun. Ive not placed my dog, just had it on the side I was going to send it, and a bit out to my side. They have already seen thier sheep, and know which way they're going to go. Question here is, if you've already trained your dog at 50, 100, 200, and on up to 650 yard outruns, what is the purpose for placing the dog?

[blackacre]

How far away from you (and the post) and at what acute angle will tell the dog how far away the sheep are. Likewise, a handler will want to put a wide running dog pretty well in front of her and pointing up the field. The opposite for a dog that runs tight. Some people will actually manually 'place" their dog where they want it to start from; most will walk to where they want the dog (with the dog beside them on the correct side) and then step back to the post.

A

[Chesney's Girl]

When I was teaching Chesney how to start his outruns I would have him on the side I would send him from but lying down facing out so he would be showing the sheep his sides. I had in mind that it would get him learning square® flanks. Now, even though he's not perfect on his outruns and they are still a work in progress I don't worry so much about placing him or facing him certain ways, I just let him go now and he has gotten the hang of not running straight up on his sheep. Otherwise I guess it would be a way to control the dog. . .

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Sometimes I work my dog where he can't see the sheep but I know where they are. Being able to set him up, and his knowing what that means, is a very useful tool in these situations.

[1sheepdoggal]

Being able to set him up, and his knowing what that means, is a very useful tool in these situations

 

Ok, this makes sence. The dog needs to be able to understand why you are posistioning him. I can also understand setting them to bring a wide dog in , and a close dog out, but being as some of the folks that I had read that were doing this, were open handlers, I would have thought that the dog by the time it was consistantly running in open, would have been taught a proper outrun? I have a wide running dog, ( my fault, as farm work isnt as precise as trialing,) so as long as she got the sheep, I wasnt concerned to much how she went about getting them. I had tried to get her to come in less wide, by doing what I had read, setting the dog,( about 11 oclock) and she will start out a little straighter, then kick out wide. Though that sounds like a pear shaped outrun, youd have to see it, cause its not. Perhaps if I was to help her understand better why I am setting her there, she may catch on.

[Shoofly]

but being as some of the folks that I had read that were doing this, were open handlers, I would have thought that the dog by the time it was consistantly running in open, would have been taught a proper outrun?

 

I hope this doesn't come across as snotty because i don't mean it to. But, going from what you wrote above and some other stuff i've seen you post, it seems like you sort of have this idea that you train a dog to a perfect standard and that's it. I mean "taught a proper outrun" sort of implies that anyway. That's just not the way it is.

 

Dogs are individuals and all of them have strengths and weaknesses. You train the dog up the best you can and then manage those strengths and weaknesses through handling. You're only going to change those strengths and weaknesses a certain amount through training. Dog has too much eye? Train and handle it one way. Too little? Train and handle it another. Dog runs out too wide? Train and set it up one way. Too tight? Train and set it up one way. There is no such thing as a dog that outruns perfectly every single time with no input or thought from the handler. Think i'm wrong? Put some sheep out of sight in a field with no fences, don't let the dog see where the sheep are, turn your back to the sheep and send your dog. It's a partnership and you have to give the dog some input.

[1sheepdoggal]

I hope this doesn't come across as snotty because i don't mean it to. But, going from what you wrote above and some other stuff i've seen you post, it seems like you sort of have this idea that you train a dog to a perfect standard and that's it

 

No worries, I know no one is out to get me, and I always appreciate it when some one helps to open my eyes, and broaden my horizens. I do have the idea, that if you train it right the first time, that there will be less problems. Though Im starting to see the light, that in stockdogs, you take what you can get, and work with it, adjusting to the dog. If youve read some of my other posts, you'll understand that my methods and ideas of training, come from learning to train in a whole different fashion, for a whole different type of work. I have noticed, that some of the rules cannot apply to stock dog training, as they do in other forms of training, but have also noticed, that some methods do work well. It is a fine line that I am learning to have to distinguish between. It would be interesting to, for me to turn my back and send my dog, maybe one day if I ever get out your way we can try that, Id like to see how she does. Here I dont have the room to hide the sheep, with out a lot of woods in between. In so far as setting a wide dog to come in a bit more, Im thinking that I would need to posistion myself between the sheep and the dog, send her, and then try calling her in a bit by using her name, and perhaps patting my leg? Im sure about this dog, she wont come directly to me if I use this method but would that be enough to pull her in? Or would I need to do this with more than myself, having one to set the dog, with me being in the middle? She also slices in at the top, about the time she realizes she has gone to wide on the outrun ( instead of coming on at the top, behind the sheep, she comes in beside, then gets behind)where should I put myself to correct this while she is doing the outrun? I would think that I would need to run in behind the sheep, and then push her back? And would you suggest doing both, bringing in the outrun, and pushing back at the top for the lift during the same work session, or would you suggest training each of these seperatly?

[Shoofly]

It's really hard to say based on just a description, without seeing the dog. I'd say you might want to go back to working on her flanks, and being able to pull her in and push her out, and then take that on to outrun training.

 

It's also possible that you're describing an "upside down" outrun, where the dog starts out a bit wide and then tightens at the top rather than the reverse. That's usually from pushing the dog out at the start of the outrun and with training can be fixed somewhat. Hard to say over the internet though!

[1sheepdoggal]

It's also possible that you're describing an "upside down" outrun, where the dog starts out a bit wide and then tightens at the top rather than the reverse. That's usually from pushing the dog out at the start of the outrun and with training can be fixed somewhat. Hard to say over the internet though

 

This sounds more like what she is doing. I bought this dog started about 5 1/2 years ago, and Im having a difficult time remembering if she did things this way when I bought her, or if Ive allowed this habit to form, though it seems that she has always been wide, and came in to close at the top, as I remember she always unsettled her sheep by the way she comes in. This is not the dog I am bringing to the JK clinic, buts she's a good reason to keep trying to make it a priority to get by to see you.

[Burnandreturn]

There is more to the outrun than just how wide. You must also figure in the mix how far the dog must go. Some people set their dogs behind and perpendicular to the sheep to get them to go WIDE, which is fine if it is not too far, say up to 500 yards. Then the extra time it takes for the dog to get to the sheep because it runs in more of a half circle is not so important. But even then a few seconds can mean a lot in a trial with difficult sheep. If you have to send your dog a long distance then I position them more in front of me to run straighter up the field in an ever widening path. More of a half a heart shape. I would rather take the hit on points for a redirect and gain some time, especially if I have the opportunity to watch other runs and get an idea how the sheep are moving and handling. If it is very long, whether work or trial, I will sort of zig zag my dog and finally whistle them out before they actually are getting close to being able to influence the sheep. The first time I ever saw a redirected outrun by a real hill shepherd gave and gives me goose bumps to this day when I think about it. This dog was running just as hard as it could run in a field it had never been seen before in the hills. The shepherd zig zaged the dog and then gave it a whistle and this dog running just as hard as it could flanked out like it was drawing a question mark and gathered 350 sheep about one mile by itself. Finally he sent another dog and worked them both to bring them the last 500 yards or so. There was a group of us and we were talking and always looking up the hills for sheep. One man suggested we should get in the truck and go have a look. The shepherd sort of looked at him/us with a little, just a little frown! I think he could have taken a nap he was that confident in his dog. It was every day work for him but not for us. I swore to myself that someday I would know and be able to train a dog to do that kind of outrun. Of course I asked him how he did it and his answer was real simple and a little guarded. Just real work for them. But I didn't give up and over many years learned how to train them.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

If youve read some of my other posts, you'll understand that my methods and ideas of training, come from learning to train in a whole different fashion, for a whole different type of work.

 

The person who adopted Eddie had a similar situation. The couple days she was here were really fun as we exchanged ideas from our very different backgrounds. She showed me how "dry" work softened the dog's attitude and enhanced communication between them. I started her thinking how stockwork is not about commands, but about being a team and training is giving the dog the tools it needs to do his part of the work.

 

Every dog is a different personality as Robin said. But I have been coming to think less in terms of "strengths" and "weaknesses" but as characteristics that can be helpful or not so useful depending on the context - and whether the dog and handler both have trained in such a way to round out the dog, give him tools to help him through limitations, enhance and empower him when he's strongest - and whether the situation, the needs of the handler, and the handler's expectations mesh with what the dog has to offer.

 

Can you work your dog fairly close, but in dense woods, somewhere? Catching sheep and working them in woods is a sort of miniature version of what happens when you have to work blind at longer distances. You can really see the holes in your relationship and training then!

[juliepoudrier]

But I didn't give up and over many years learned how to train them.

Would you care to share what you learned about training this with the rest of us? Thanks!

 

J.

[Burnandreturn]

Would you care to share what you learned about training this with the rest of us? Thanks!

 

J.

I'll tell you exactly what he told me............find a steep hill!

[1sheepdoggal]

Can you work your dog fairly close, but in dense woods, somewhere? Catching sheep and working them in woods is a sort of miniature version of what happens when you have to work blind at longer distances

 

Hey Becca, Yep, I can,( didnt think it was a good idea at first, but I trust this dog so...why not!?)and was doing just that this morning, I let 5 of the sheep out and was pushing them towards the woods, (wasnt much pushing involved, as there is grass growing out there, which is more than is in my pasture right now so they were willing subjects) when about half way there, I heard a shot just in back of the property. Forgot, this is the last day of the deer hunt. To many buck fever boys out today to risk my dog or sheep. Theres 115 acres behind my place, and another 100 next door. I spect its all crawling with hunters. But, tomorrow is another day. Shame though, its a beautiful, warm, sunny day out today, after all the rain yesterday. Guess we'll have to stay confined to pasture and fences for the moment. Im going to work on flanks today, as Robin suggested, and try to pull her in a bit more with the closer work. Maybe hunting season was a blessing after all. Though the prospect of sending her blind is still a tantalizing challenge, and I look fowrard to seeing how it goes. Thanks for helping to remind me to trust my dog, there may be holes in her training, but she does listen well when it comes to wanting to get her sheep up, so I spect our relationship is pretty sound. Had a thought just now though, she will, Ive seen in the past, look to me when I send her on a very long outrun, its rare that she forgets where the sheep are, but I have seen her hesitate when Ive sent her longer than she is accustomed to, and slow down and look back at me for help.( if she doesnt cross over first) If I tell her again to come bye to continue on in that direction, she will, but kicks out even further, as if she is starting the whole outrun again. Probably wont get to that today, but it may be a factor when I send her in the woods tomorrow. What would be a better re-direct so she doesnt kick back out, but continues on?

[juliepoudrier]

I'll tell you exactly what he told me............find a steep hill!

I thought since we were in the "Training Discussion" section that you might actually want to share with the rest of us the benefit of your experience--after all, that's what these discussions are supposed to be about. Oh well.

 

J.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Too bad you won't have this dog at the clinic, Darci! Would sure love to see her.

 

If I give another flank on the outrun, most of mine will kick out wider too - I think that's what is expected. I could be wrong. I know it is a useful thing when it does work that way.

 

Just this afternoon I had to send the dogs blind. The sheep were down on the hill above the pond, and I sent one dog one way and one the other. Cord spotted them quicker but went too wide and let the sheep bolt - I saw a head toss and then saw birds fly up in the direction of the pond. So I called Gus around wider since he was on the dam side and he turned them back just as they were reaching the dike. But both dogs knew right from the start not to expect to find the sheep in sight the way they were set before I sent them.

[1sheepdoggal]

I would love to bring her, she's a lovely ole gal, be 8 yrs soon, a *Ben daughter. ( Sis to Adam's Raid) I love her work ethic, she's never quit me yet, and is my "go to" dog. But she was never really a fast dog, and has slowed down with the years. So, trying to make a trial dog of her at this point, especially after all the years Ive allowed sloppy work as a farm dog, would be a bit hard on her. She is very forgiving, and trys very hard to do as I ask, and Ive been trying to clean a few things up with her in so far as her work, because she teaches me so much, (she's got more stock sence than I'll ever have) Seems she always knows what to do and where to go even when ( especially when )Im wrong. So I utilize her knowledge, to help me learn where I need to be. Believe me, If I give a command, and am in the wrong posistion, she will turn her head and look at me as if to say "you dumb *#*# thats not where your suppose to be when you ask me to do this!!" I wont bring her for the clinic, but one day Id love for ya to meet her. She is very special, and very sweet.

 

As far as kicking back out on the outrun, if I give her the flank command again after Ive sent her, thats kinda what I would expect her to do as well, kick back out. But I dont know of another way to ask her to keep ranging further upwards, with out casting out further. I have sent her as far as 400 and 500 yards to gather sheep, anything else any further, and she will cross over, so she has a pretty decent outrun on her, its just very large, and to help save her energy, Id like to see it whittled down a bit. Thats where my interest has come from in becoming interested in setting a dog up for the outrun. But I'll tell ya, I worked with her on flanks and short outruns today. Funny thing about this gal. She will work great when in close proxcimity to me, where she knows I can get to her or get in the right posistion to so she has to work correctly, but you get her further away, and I dont seem to matter so much then. She'll get the work done, but tends to ignore the way I want things done, and goes about it in her own fashion. Again, my fault, as Ive never really minded this type of behavior when she was younger and more fit, but darn it! Im trying to help her now as she is getting older and she just doesnt get it. Maybe I should just give up on trying to teach an old dog new tricks.

 

You'll enjoy Chris though, (my avatar pic) the one I am bringing to the clinic. She's a jewel. Just had her 3rd B-day Christmas eve day, and she is a joy to work with. Very responsive dog, and another that has all grit and no quit in her. I look forward to a day that I can send her and Lex together like you have talked about with your two today. Right now though, I hesitate to do that as Im afraid Lexy may teach her some bad habits. We will be hoping to do quite a bit of work driving with her, while there. And doing a bit of re-training to get her to to stop at the top for the lift. Some thing she use to do, ( when I intially started her) until I allowed her, (as I have Lex) to stop doing, as I just was interested in them bringing the sheep. I think she'll do it just fine, if she doesnt have sheep that start to move off as soon as she rounds the top. I am looking forward to the clinic, and still keeping my fingers crossed hoping it can happen.

[kelpiegirl]

I am dealing with the same sort of thing. Lucy has either very good outruns, or not so good. If I tell her get out when she is on the fly- it usually just makes her go faster. I have been stopping her, walking up parallel to her, and at first, giving her the flank again, but now I tell her get out, and it's like she says "oh, THAT'S what you wanted", if I give her the flank again, she says "I WAS doing that!". Well, I don't know she is saying it but it looks that way by her ears. Even though she is very fast, she is highly attuned to the sheep when she is sent- everything she does is because of the sheep's heads, I believe. I have seen myriad dogs just run out beautifully, and end at balance an come in, it is beautiful. Then I see Lucy- always looking for where they are headed, and determining where she should be- deeper- she even will over balance to turn their heads at the lift. Her outruns are way better up a hill- then down a hill- perhaps because the draw is up the hill, and gathering them toward where they want to run is hard. It is really something different every single time. I envy those of you who's dogs do the right thing pretty much all the time!!!!

[Laurae]

Hi all,

Darci, I am enjoying this discussion about your girl's outrun tendencies. If your girl is a sister to Larry's Raid, then my Craig is a half brother to your Lex. She sounds like she is similar to Craig in some ways. But I wanted to address your question of how to get her to listen to you when she is further out as well as she does when she is close in. You said,

As far as kicking back out on the outrun, if I give her the flank command again after Ive sent her, thats kinda what I would expect her to do as well, kick back out. But I dont know of another way to ask her to keep ranging further upwards, with out casting out further. I have sent her as far as 400 and 500 yards to gather sheep, anything else any further, and she will cross over, so she has a pretty decent outrun on her, its just very large, and to help save her energy, Id like to see it whittled down a bit. Thats where my interest has come from in becoming interested in setting a dog up for the outrun. But I'll tell ya, I worked with her on flanks and short outruns today. Funny thing about this gal. She will work great when in close proxcimity to me, where she knows I can get to her or get in the right posistion to so she has to work correctly, but you get her further away, and I dont seem to matter so much then. She'll get the work done, but tends to ignore the way I want things done, and goes about it in her own fashion.

Now I am only a novice, so my take on things tends to be a bit simplistic, but I wonder if you could work closer in with her, where you have the control, and create a new command to "keep ranging further upwards" even though it would likely not be necessary for the close-in work. Make it a completely new command. Then, if you did ask her to do this and gave it a name, and she learns that when you tell her this new command she should be continuing toward the sheep in the same trajectory, perhaps she would understand what you were asking for when you gave that same command when she was working just a bit further out, and then further out still, and so on until she could follow the command when you really need her to when she's working well out. Does that make any sense?

[blackacre]

Kent Kuykendall suggested an exercise to me that might be useful. Start the dog at your feet, with the sheep in sight but a fair distance away. Walk her up (it might take a little to persuade your dog that this is really what you want). Flank her a ways. Stop her, walk her up again. Flank her again. You can use both flanks in this exercise--you're not creating an outrun per se, but are developing flexibility in the dog and conditioning her to approach sheep more directly without affecting them. Once she is in range and is getting into the bubble, you can flank her all the way around and get her to bring them back. Rather like our anonymous poster's description of the zigzag I would think. I've seen a Nationals winner do this, just to test his control of the dog on the outrun, and it was pretty impressive. Neat party trick too. Same guy can use his dog to shed a flock of sheep at two hundred yards, into smaller and smaller segments. Now that's control.

A

[1sheepdoggal]

Darci, I am enjoying this discussion about your girl's outrun tendencies. If your girl is a sister to Larry's Raid, then my Craig is a full brother to your Lex, but from a previous litter

 

Her DOB is 8-12-00 dam is Clarkshome Dash. She, (Dash) figures prominantly in many pedigrees from what Ive seen. I think Lexy even has her not just as the dam, but further back in the GG or GGG grandparents. I'll attach a pic of her for ya to compare.

if you could work closer in with her, where you have the control, and create a new command to "keep ranging further upwards" even though it would likely not be necessary for the close-in work. Make it a completely new command. Then, if you did ask her to do this and gave it a name, and she learns that when you tell her this new command she should be continuing toward the sheep in the same trajectory, perhaps she would understand what you were asking for when you gave that same command when she was working just a bit further out, and then further out still, and so on until she could follow the command when you really need her to when she's working well out. Does that make any sense

 

Yes, this does make sence, and I was just thinking about it yesterday myself and trying to work out in my head how I would go about doing that. I try to have a plan when I go out to train, and she seems to know the difference between when we are just working, as opposed to when we are trying to train, I think it has some thing to do with the fact that when we train, I have my training stick, and when we work, I have my crook. But Im still trying to figure out how to go about it. I dont know if I want to stop her, and then have her walk up, and then speed her up from there or what yet. Any suggestions are always appreciated.

[1sheepdoggal]

Kent Kuykendall suggested an exercise to me that might be useful. Start the dog at your feet, with the sheep in sight but a fair distance away. Walk her up (it might take a little to persuade your dog that this is really what you want). Flank her a ways. Stop her, walk her up again. Flank her again. You can use both flanks in this exercise--you're not creating an outrun per se, but are developing flexibility in the dog and conditioning her to approach sheep more directly without affecting them. Once she is in range and is getting into the bubble, you can flank her all the way around and get her to bring them back. Rather like our anonymous poster's description of the zigzag I would think. I've seen a Nationals winner do this, just to test his control of the dog on the outrun, and it was pretty impressive. Neat party trick too. Same guy can use his dog to shed a flock of sheep at two hundred yards, into smaller and smaller segments. Now that's control

 

Sorry, some how I missed this one this morning, great post, thanks. Heading out to try it out now. I think your right, getting her to walk up when she thinks she's in posistion for the outrun, is gonna test our relationship. Hope she lets me be the brains today! I'll get back later and let cha know how it went.

[1sheepdoggal]

HOLY SMOKES!! Have ya ever just had one of those days when out working a dog when everything you didnt think would happen (but hoped it would) did, and everything you didnt want to happen didnt! Just want to thank you again Blackacre, this was a very useful exercise. Honestly, I didnt think this was going to be an easy thing for Lex to do. I set it up, sheep about 150 to 200 yards away and did it just like you said. Funny too, the first time I asked her to walk up, and she expected me to send her on an out run......well, have ya ever seen a dog do a double take! She started to tense for the outrun as soon as I opened my mouth to say what I wanted her to do, and as I said walk up, she slapped one foot out like she was getting ready to take off at break neck speed, and stopped and looked at me as if I were crazy! She honestly did a double take! But she walked up! After about 4 or 5 times of her and I doing this exercise, and letting her fetch them back to me, and starting all over again, her flanks became smaller and smaller, from wanting to leap out 10 foot to the side when asked to flank, to an almost un-noticable small flank. The most fun we had, was doing the zig zag. That was neat! But I found that in doing this, that I am sending my dog to much on the come bye side, and not enough to the away. She tended to try to be one sided, and I had to work on the away a bit more than I did for the come bye. This was a great exercise too, to show a person how much your dog is really listening to you. She really surprised me and I couldnt have been more pleased with our progress, and with how she performed. Can ya tell!

[blackacre]

Hey cool, Darci. Glad it worked for you. Kent had a whole bag of tricks like that. He was a treat to work with, one of my favrouite clinicians of all time. I'm sorry he's retired from the scene, even if it is only temporarily. I look forward to having him back one of these days.

A