training the "hard" dog

[Wendy V]

Does anyone have experience training a "hard" dog? Any tips you might pass along? How do you take the grip out of one?

[kelpiegirl]

Hi Wendy

I bet that you will get a load of answers that don't really answer your question What I mean is that most people will say they don't want the grip taken out of the dog, and also that they would rather a hard, than soft dog. I am one of them.

[Shoofly]

I use a packed pen with the dog on a 6 foot leash. I actually do this for almost every dog I train or that comes for lessons. I find it's excellent for tough grippy dogs and also for softer, less confident dogs. Generally, I find inappropriate gripping to be happening with both dogs for the same reason - what I call an attitude of "the best defense is a good offense". Get the dogs in with the sheep and get them comfortable and that grip usually goes away. I've probably handled upwards of 40 dogs in my packed pen area (8ft x 10 ft) and I've only ever had one that didn't gain confidence and really grow as a sheepdog, and she was just a killer, plain and simple.

 

I can't explain the methods i use really, because there's just so, so much going on in the packed pen the way i do it. Basically i'm reinforcing nice behaviors and correcting ones i don't want though. I know you weren't asking about grippy dogs but it's a lovely method with tough dogs too because everything is happening right there at your feet, so the dog really has a hard time beating you or flipping you the doggy bird. I'm almost always blown away at what happens with the dogs after a few minutes of it.

 

ETA - oops, just reread and saw where you *were* asking about grip. Same method, just leave proper grips alone and discourage inappropriate ones.

[Wendy V]

Thanks, Robin, I've been using the packed pen lately (only twice) for both my "hard" dog and my easy dog, and both have increased in confidence. Interestingly, the "hard" dog takes appropriate grips when in close quarters and can squeeze himself into tight corners without issue. It is a great exercise for all dogs and I intend to do more of it.

 

I've been asked to provide more detail about the "hard" dog. He is 2 1/2 yo, and can do amazing things when his mind is right. But when under stock pressure, either with the sheep running hard to escape or when flanking into tight pressure areas (i.e. against a fence, and inside flanks), he will lose his head and bust in and grip. No amount of force from me has taken this out of him. He has come to expect a correction after this behavior, but the correction doesn't improve him. He will also grip after a lift when attempting to increase distance on the outrun. His downs are improving and I use lots of stops with him; using it to slow his pace and increase distance between him and the sheep, particularly when asking for a direction change. However, I am stimied by the gripping, which I consider fear-based, and am frustrated at our lack of progress. On a postive note, he has a lot of heart and has no quit in him.

[Shoofly]

I've been asked to provide more detail about the "hard" dog. He is 2 1/2 yo, and can do amazing things when his mind is right. But when under stock pressure, either with the sheep running hard to escape or when flanking into tight pressure areas (i.e. against a fence, and inside flanks), he will lose his head and bust in and grip. No amount of force from me has taken this out of him. He has come to expect a correction after this behavior, but the correction doesn't improve him. He will also grip after a lift when attempting to increase distance on the outrun. His downs are improving and I use lots of stops with him; using it to slow his pace and increase distance between him and the sheep, particularly when asking for a direction change. However, I am stimied by the gripping, which I consider fear-based, and am frustrated at our lack of progress. On a postive note, he has a lot of heart and has no quit in him.

 

First a question -- can you slow him down and speed him up on his flanks and when he's walking into sheep without stopping him?

 

It's hard to do this over the internet, but it certainly sounds like you're dealing with tension more so than "hardness". I almost never actually see a hard dog, but there sure are lots out there acting like it out of tension.

 

Anyway, believe it or not, i think you're answering your own questions up there. You say he's wonderful when his mind is right and also that he's come to expect a correction *after* he blows up. Just based on what you've said, it sounds like the corrections are coming after the fact, and well after they'd make sense to the dog (or this particular dog anyway). If you read the dog and correct him when his mind first becomes wrong, before he actually blows up, and keep him in the work, you should see some improvement. Again, hard to explain in writing. But, say you're sending him into a tight corner. If his attitude is right, you let him go, with a nicely said "steady" or "time" from you to keep his mind calm (hence my question about pace above). It's not really a correction at that point but a reminder tone. Now, say he's balls to the wall trying to rush in there. You'd correct him with a more harshly said "time" to get him to gear his rushing brain down, but still let him go in there with his improved attitude, which should also result in improved pace and method from him. And because he goes into the tight space with a nicer attitude and more slowly, the sheep have time to get out of the corner without falling all over each other, and this not only makes the sheep happier about it, it should take some of the "sheep pressure" or fear away from the dog.

 

This is a little harder to accomplish on sheep that are racing away but it does work there too. Work on a more controlled situation like corners first, then move on. If the dog gets into chase mode when sheep are running away, make him slow down and he *should* kick out to catch the sheep instead of falling in behind them and following them at 90 mph until he can grab one.

 

I have a dog that sounds a bit like yours that i wish i could go back and train over again. She's 8 years old now and may be the most talented dog i'll ever own, but the natural tension in her combined with my relative inexperience "back then" was a bad combination. She's better now but that tension still raises its head on us too often for her to be a good trial dog. Sure wish i could start over now with her!

 

Hope something here is helpful. It's hard to read a dog from this far away.

[workindogs]

What Robin said.....

 

Yes, it sounds to me like a tension too....not hardness. Your corrections may be increasing his tension.

 

I have a high tension bitch that originally came across as "hard"....she is quite tough but I finally realized that the grips were tension and the corrections were only adding to it. I can't tell you how many times I was given well meaning advice to escalate the corrections. She had come to me as an adult from a "hard" dog handler....I could never hope to communicate with her at that level. I finally had an epiphany working with a highly regarded Welsh shepherd who recognized the problem....he had me switch only to whistles (remove the frustrated voice), back her off alot (she's a very powerful dog and was locking in), as soon as the tension shows itself lie her down and don't let her up until it's gone or she's looking to me (giving me her power and putting me back into her picture)....wait it out. We made tremendous progress.

 

Gotta go....will write more later.

[Shoofly]

I have a high tension bitch that originally came across as "hard"....she is quite tough but I finally realized that the grips were tension and the corrections were only adding to it. I can't tell you how many times I was given well meaning advice to escalate the corrections. She had come to me as an adult from a "hard" dog handler....I could never hope to communicate with her at that level. I finally had an epiphany working with a highly regarded Welsh shepherd who recognized the problem....

 

Exactly. You can make dogs hard by training/handling them that way. I think that's why I seem to run across fewer and fewer actual hard dogs in training. It's not so much that there are less coming my way, it's that the dogs don't "harden up" with these methods.

[painted_ponies]

But, say you're sending him into a tight corner. If his attitude is right, you let him go, with a nicely said "steady" or "time" from you to keep his mind calm (hence my question about pace above). It's not really a correction at that point but a reminder tone. Now, say he's balls to the wall trying to rush in there. You'd correct him with a more harshly said "time" to get him to gear his rushing brain down, but still let him go in there with his improved attitude, which should also result in improved pace and method from him. And because he goes into the tight space with a nicer attitude and more slowly, the sheep have time to get out of the corner without falling all over each other, and this not only makes the sheep happier about it, it should take some of the "sheep pressure" or fear away from the dog.

 

I think I see how this could work. I'm gonna try it with Faith this weekend! I can get her to lie down on the approach, but at this point she sort of has two speeds - halt and balls, er, ovaries to the wall.

 

If the dog gets into chase mode when sheep are running away, make him slow down and he *should* kick out to catch the sheep instead of falling in behind them and following them at 90 mph until he can grab one.

 

I hope I'm not hi-jacking, but would you mind explaining how you'd make the dog slow down in this situation, please?

[Belleview]

Hey Wendy!

 

Last year, I posed a very simliar question to Amanda when she was acting as the board expert. She gave me some really good advice for my dog, who was doing some of the same stuff you're describing. I too thought it some kind of an anxiety response, even tho the dog was great in tight situations like stalls & pens. Like your guy, mine has zero quit & is very hard to make an impression on with conventional corrections.

 

I'll copy my question & Amanda's advice below. I hauled my young dog to a bunch of different places to set up situations like Amanda described. At first, it was a grip fest, tho it improved enormously over time. It was very hard for me not to rush to correct him, but I in retrospect, I believe it was the right way to handle it. Since it really was a fear thing on some level, the conventional corrections weren't the answer. Neither was relying on frequent stopping.

 

My dog has *many* other issues which will likely put the kabash to his trial career, but this worked great for the gripping.

 

Take care!

 

Lori Cunningham

 

Cut & Paste of my question below:

 

>>>>Hi Amanda-

 

I'm befuddled about how I should be winter training my young dog (just turned 2) to help him learn some patience on sheep that need to be pushed. He started as a bit of a hot headed youngster, but didn't do any real damage so I didn't make a big deal out of it, and he did seem mostly to grow out of it, with work & mileage. He trialed successfully at the nursery level last year as a one year old.

 

However, he ran in some late autumn trials on sheep that either needed to be pushed or were challenging dogs. I saw something of a pattern that he would handle the situation calmly for a portion of the course and then lose his cool on some part of the drive and buzz or grip.

 

What should I be doing in training to help work through this? I don't know whether I should be backing him off and enforcing pace, and maybe walking with him? He will move forward when asked. Or, should I be letting him come on with more speed and push and try to avoid the situation before it happens? If he blows up, should I correct him harshly? He doesn't seem to have problem working in close quarters in pens or stalls and does have a grip command.

 

Appreciate your thoughts.

 

Lori Cunningham

 

 

Amanda Jan 9 2006, 09:22 PM Post #2

 

 

I don't like asking young dogs to back off. I think they should do whatever it takes to move sheep. Having said that, I have lost more than my share of trials to grips. Taking the grip out of a young one is a constant temptation of the sheep dog trialist. Trials and suburban views of grips, require it of us. I think he will grow out of it and if you are too severe with him, you will not have much dog left for later, when it counts. My friend Roddy MacDiarmid does not nursery at all, for the exact reason that you are identifying as a challenge--you have trained this dog up, probably pretty well, and he appears to blow gaskets when the going gets tough. He would likely grow out of it if there is enough dog there. You have good instincts. Go with them.

It might help to create difficulty at home--taking sheep across an icy stream, or through a narrow race. If you think he needs you near, by all means, stay close. But in the end of such training, if my dog needed to grip to get the job done, I would let it. Honour the job at all costs.

Amanda

[Shoofly]

I think I see how this could work. I'm gonna try it with Faith this weekend! I can get her to lie down on the approach, but at this point she sort of has two speeds - halt and balls, er, ovaries to the wall.

 

I hope I'm not hi-jacking, but would you mind explaining how you'd make the dog slow down in this situation, please?

 

You have to teach the dog what "time" means, probably when fetching or wearing. Then go on to using it on flanks. Oh, BTW, i also teach the dog to hurry up as well. I like my dogs to have "gears". I start this fairly early in training. Anyway, both situations are handled the same way. Give the time command in a nice or "command/request/reminder" tone, and if the dog doesn't do it, switch to a corrective, growling tone. If that doesn't work, you'd go to a stop or body pressure and take the dog out of the work so he knows you're less than pleased. He doesn't get to work unless it's on your terms. First you ask for niceness, then you get more insistent, then you take away the toys. It's really hard to describe this over the internet!

 

In your first situation (the corner), it would be best if you could get the dog to slow down, not stop. You want to make the correction and shape the work if you can, while the dog continues moving/working. The stop might actually make the dog more desperate, especially if it's a tense dog. But use the down if you have to - it's still better than the dog getting in the habit of busting into corners like a fool.

 

In the second situation, it's absolutely vital that you catch the dog and get the attitude right before it gets way out away from you. You have to fix the attitude as it starts to go bad, not 50 yards into a chase. If it gets to the 50 yards out point, stop the dog and get the attitude right before you let it continue to go get the sheep.

 

Sorry, i hope this makes sense and doesn't turn into a wreck when you try it at home - it's just so hard to explain when voice tones and timing are so crucial to it working.

[Shoofly]

Lori posted some great advice there. I'm at that point with my young dog, where i'm looking for ways to help him feel his power and dominance over sheep. I think pushing sheep someplace they don't want to go is a great way to do that. In the last week of training, he's stopped the nervous silly grips, now time to let him learn what teeth are really for - to get the job done when you need to push.

 

Thanks for the reminder Lori!

[painted_ponies]

You have to teach the dog what "time" means, probably when fetching or wearing. Then go on to using it on flanks. Oh, BTW, i also teach the dog to hurry up as well. I like my dogs to have "gears". I start this fairly early in training. Anyway, both situations are handled the same way. Give the time command in a nice or "command/request/reminder" tone, and if the dog doesn't do it, switch to a corrective, growling tone. If that doesn't work, you'd go to a stop or body pressure and take the dog out of the work so he knows you're less than pleased. He doesn't get to work unless it's on your terms. First you ask for niceness, then you get more insistent, then you take away the toys. It's really hard to describe this over the internet!

 

Thanks, Robin. I'll give this a try this weekend.

[Wendy V]

Thanks, guys, I really appreciate the help. I have been experimenting with non-aggressive verbal corrections when the dog busts into sheep and it has lessened the grips somewhat. I think this is positive progress because it can rebuilt the trust between the dog and I. I still need to be able to prevent sheep abuse, though. I use someone else's flock and I am very sensitive to handling them harshly and causing injury. The sheep know this dog and are very soured on him (for good reason), couple this with the fact that he is solid black and very wolf-like, and the sheep are in a panic before I even send the dog. The field is very narrow (<100 yds) with heavy barn pressure, so I am limited by the maneuvers I can practice, either driving the sheep straight back to the end of the field, with a short cross drive into the fence. Perhaps returning to the paddock will help lessen his anxiety, where the sheep can't bolt away.

 

Robin, do you get any snow? Having the dogs push sheep through deep snow really helps increase their confidence on heavy sheep. It is one of my favorite winter exercises and it really improved my open dogs, who usually only work dog-broke sheep. I intend to practice this often with the young ones, including Mr. Hardcase.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Robin, do you get any snow?

 

Does one inch, once a year count?

 

I can attest to the "take the tension out" exercise really working. I have one of those pups where, when the brain is on, he's fantastic, but right now there's so much keeness and so much for him to process, he does get a bit frantic. Robin started him in the packed pen right off the bat and wow, did it ever make a huge difference. Since then we've been going along and the journey has always seemed to have been with him, about new ways to help him see that relaxed and thinking is best!

 

And, just last weekend, the Rocky pup learned about thinking through pressure, too, which increased his confidence a zillion times over. He definitely fits the "best defense is a good offense" description.

 

Both these dogs were grippy as pups, but for completely different reasons. They are almost exact opposite in working style, personality, comfort levels.

 

I agree that sometimes we rush to label a dog "hard" when there's so many different reasons that a dog may come on too strong, or run through commands, or bite stock inappropriately.

[Guest carol campion]

Hi Wendy

 

Interesting thread.

 

The advice offered would be different based on if the dog is actually "hard" as opposed to tense as opposed to confused and in over its head.

 

I always take the "confused dog" approach first and back my approach up to basics to sort out exactly where things went wrong. Rather than err on the side of hardening a dog by assuming stubborn and willfull where it may not be.

 

I also find it a conflict to say a dog is "hard" while at the same time saying he has a lot of "heart". For me, a hard dog doesn't care about what anyone wants but himself and a dog with "heart" will do anything for you. So it is a matter of language and terminology. I do not say this as criticism, but to sort out differences arising from not seeing the dog first hand and from having different vocabularies.

 

If this dog is tense, it could be because of many reasons. He could be in over his head or just have the kind of eye that doesn't allow the dog to let go of his sheep.

 

I would back up to building the proper reaction to putting pressure on the dog (correction) and then use this pressure before the dog goes wrong. This has already been suggested. Take it all the way back to square one though.

 

I put my dogs in a 80 x 100 paddock with a handful of sheep somewhat like Robin's packed pen approach. I have more room though and use fewer sheep. But I like the area enclosed and not in the open because it allows the dog to build confidence handling the sheep up close and it allows you to build many relationship dynamics between you & you dog.

 

I keep the dog on a line between me and the fence as we both cast around the sheep. Like Marilyn, I am looking firstly for the dog to acknowledge me in this dynamic. By having the dog on a line, you can prevent any rash behavior that the dogs displays by merely not releasing the dog until he relaxes and acknowledges you. Once that dog relaxes, you release it. I want it between the sheep and the fence, and once relaxed it will have its head on right and will usually cast around properly. If the dog is wild or rash, I will not release it and I will use some method, like slapping my leg with my hat or a buggy whip or just a harsh growl while jerking the line to let it know it is wrong. I use as much force as necessary to let the dog know I am there and to get back in the picture. I use as little pressure as possible at first and escalate as I need rather than start out too harsh.

 

By having the dog on a line, I have a captive audience and the correction comes at the proper moment. I am not restraining the dog during this until I need to correct, but give it some slack and room to be wrong. I am able to prevent it from building any work method on its poor behavior by being able to stop it. My goal is to get the dog to include me in the picture. I also add a "corrective phrase" to my physical correction so that I can graduate to using that phrase anywhere later in the dogs training-at any distance and as was pointed out-BEFORE the dog goes wrong. The dog will make the proper associatin to the correction because it was applied to the exact moment.

 

You will be amazed at how fast training can proceed if you establish good work ethics and a proper response to your corrections early on.

 

Back to your dog Wendy.

 

I would take your dog back to a small area and study to see where he first goes wrong-be it from lack of confidence, too much eye or possibly out of habit. Get a good stop on him and use it to help him let go of some ideas he may have and get him to listen to you as was pointed out. Stop him before you need to flank him if he may chase. A good trick is to stop him and once he is down, repeat the stop command again to help him relax into stopping and not anticipate being asked up again.

 

Go back and reteach your flanks separately from your fetching and driving. My experience has been that some dogs who learn their flanks as part of fetching and or driving are never clear that they should actually release the sheep and go around them They get conflicted because to them on a flank they are still thinking they should be somehow holding onto their sheep. So they start to flank and then chase because they are not sure what is expected of them. It would be more pronounced with a dog with more eye. If you decide that is the problem, work on his flanks as a schooling situation and watch for where he draws up. Ask him to go farther than his preconceived idea of where to draw up. It will free up his flanks. Work his flanks, both balance & off balance until he is free and 100% on them. To keep him fresh, always add in a fetch and some balance work to keep the natural in your dog.

 

If he slices and chases on flanks when driving, flank him behind you for a while. Do not allow him to be wrong and set it up for a while so he is not wrong, even if it means shortening things up. When you start flanking him in front of you again, look for where he is drawing up and make him always flank past that point for a while to teach him to let go on a flank.

 

Once you have spent time on these "showing/teaching" stages, and you think he understands, put him in his work. Apply all this to outruns fetches and drives. If and when things go wrong, you will have broken down and addressed things so if you stop him when he is wrong, you can correct but then shift to the "training" situation to show him what you want. Help him with the training situation and them go back to the work. Be sure to stop him and correct him BEFORE he goes wrong.

 

Stop him first so he doesn't learn to run through a correction and if he starts doing that, put a line on him so he can't outrun a correction. A proper correction used with a good foundation of showing/teaching helps a dog progress with confidence. It becomes clear to a dog where he is right and where he is wrong.

 

Also, I can't emphasize enough to establish this all close at hand so it is all in the dogs confidence level stretching things out as things are perfected.

 

Hope all this helps. Many of these points have already been made.

 

Carol

[Wendy V]

Carolyn,

 

Thank you for your thoughful response. I say the dog has heart, because I feel he is trying to please me and has never quit me, even when I have used harsh corrections. I say the dog is "hard" because the variety of corrections I have used has not improved much the gripping/chasing in pressure situations. I also feel that I have made the dog harder out of my inexperience, poor timing, and inappropriate corrections, either too soft or too hard. I feel that perhaps "tense" is a better word. The dog has eye but is not sticky.

 

They get conflicted because to them on a flank they are still thinking they should be somehow holding onto their sheep.

 

 

This is interestingly said. I think this is the case entirely. I think he is trying so hard to control the sheep (due to heavy field pressures) that he busts into them out of a fear of losing control.

 

Go back and reteach your flanks separately from your fetching and driving.

 

Perhaps you can elaborate. I have done much flank training with the sheep in the center while I ask and enforce direction around them. Several short flanks in succession seem to soften him up. I have begun to retrain the inside flanks using some of Derek Scrimgeour's techniques, pulling the dog behind me first, and then in front of me while I stand with my back to a fence. Since it is at hand, I am there to help and enforce the direction. I have found this to be very helpful and I will continue this exercise for a while. Repetition of this exercise improves him.

 

I have had mixed success in using the line with this dog. I have used it when starting him, a la Marc Christopher, and used it to prevent gripping/chasing when driving, but it soon became cumbersone and limited the amount of training exercises I could do with this dog. I have worked him using a line from 20ft up to 100 ft. While it stopped the dog after a grip/chase began, it was never enough of a deterrant to stop the behavior from developing in the first place. A lot of the time, the rope was wrapped around my ankles. ;-)

[Sue R]

Just an additional thought concerning the use of a line - as I only have cattle at home and not sheep, I do not dare use a long line for fear of the dog becoming tangled in some fashion and hurt by the cattle. Is there an alternative that could be used in that type of situation? I have used it but very little, and just in a lesson on sheep. It seemed to make the dog very tentative and, as he has confidence issues to begin with, I haven't used it since.

[Guest carol campion]

Hi Sue & Wendy

 

Will get back to your questions after the holiday when I have a chance to write.

 

Merry Christmas

 

Carol

[Guest carol campion]

Just an additional thought concerning the use of a line - as I only have cattle at home and not sheep, I do not dare use a long line for fear of the dog becoming tangled in some fashion and hurt by the cattle. Is there an alternative that could be used in that type of situation? I have used it but very little, and just in a lesson on sheep. It seemed to make the dog very tentative and, as he has confidence issues to begin with, I haven't used it since.

 

Hi Sue

 

I do not use a line to restrain a dog. The dog drags it and it is a thin cord-not a heavy rope. I use it as a help line in case I need to stop a dog that isn't working with me, such as in the case of dogs' taking off back to the sheep once you have asked them to quit; or a dog taking off on its outrun before you send it . If the dog is working properly and not too tight on its flanks, the dog won't get caught in its line because the line will be trailing out behind. If you are getting tangled, then it might be a good way to look at how the dog is working. But I will be the first to admit, I do not work cattle so have no opinion or experience as to how this would apply to cattle.

 

You can replace the line with a stop if you have that kind of control on the dog. Basically, you need to be able to stop the dog from carrying out some behavior that will create a bad habit or hurt itself or the stock. If you haven't that kind of control, then a line is handy. Again, they drag it and I do not pick it up until I am faced with that situation that is tentative. I would pick it up, say, just before I asked a dog to come off stock that had trouble doing so. Rather than stand there screaming "that'll do" fifteen times while the dog still runs off, I grab the line just in case. if you can stop it instead on command, great, Best answer. But if not, that line in your hand can reinforce what you want and be a life line of sorts. It can help you break bad habits such as mentioned or keep them from starting.

 

Also, I don't find dogs that drag a line feel tentative. They usually don't notice it is there. And I remove it once the bad habit is broken and/or I can reliably use a stop for the same thing.

 

But not every training tool suits everyone. If it doesn't work for you, by all means you should't use it.

 

Carol

[Guest carol campion]

Wendy wrote:

 

Carolyn,

 

Thank you for your thoughful response. I say the dog has heart, because I feel he is trying to please me and has never quit me, even when I have used harsh corrections. I say the dog is "hard" because the variety of corrections I have used has not improved much the gripping/chasing in pressure situations. I also feel that I have made the dog harder out of my inexperience, poor timing, and inappropriate corrections, either too soft or too hard. I feel that perhaps "tense" is a better word. The dog has eye but is not sticky.

 

 

Carol writes

 

I bet tense is more accurate. And I think you re right. Poor timing, inappropriate pressure when understanding was more warranted can build tension. Could be he has the kind of eye that doesn't want to let go of the sheep so you will get tension there.

 

 

QUOTE

They get conflicted because to them on a flank they are still thinking they should be somehow holding onto their sheep.

 

Wendy writes:

 

This is interestingly said. I think this is the case entirely. I think he is trying so hard to control the sheep (due to heavy field pressures) that he busts into them out of a fear of losing control.

 

Carol writes:

 

To proof that out, execute the same piece of work but start where the pressure will work for him and gradually angle the work so that it is more into the pressure-more difficult. See if and where he becomes undone. If he does as the pressure and the weight of the sheep on him increases, work him to before that point-not in that much pressure, til he gets 100% and then up the difficulty. Could be he is in over his head for pressure and needs to work in an easier less stressful situation to get confident in what you are asking-like holding the line and then flanking on the drive.

 

QUOTE

Go back and reteach your flanks separately from your fetching and driving.

 

Wendy writes:

 

Perhaps you can elaborate. I have done much flank training with the sheep in the center while I ask and enforce direction around them. Several short flanks in succession seem to soften him up. I have begun to retrain the inside flanks using some of Derek Scrimgeour's techniques, pulling the dog behind me first, and then in front of me while I stand with my back to a fence. Since it is at hand, I am there to help and enforce the direction. I have found this to be very helpful and I will continue this exercise for a while. Repetition of this exercise improves him.

 

I have had mixed success in using the line with this dog. I have used it when starting him, a la Marc Christopher, and used it to prevent gripping/chasing when driving, but it soon became cumbersone and limited the amount of training exercises I could do with this dog. I have worked him using a line from 20ft up to 100 ft. While it stopped the dog after a grip/chase began, it was never enough of a deterrant to stop the behavior from developing in the first place. A lot of the time, the rope was wrapped around my ankles. ;-)

 

Carol writes:

 

I assume when you mention Derek you are talking about flanking in a circle and stopping him he comes in tight?

 

When you are working the flanks, if you just stand in one spot and flank him around the sheep with you stationary, what he is really learning is limited.

 

You need move yourself about as you do this. That will up the difficulty by constantly changing the balance point and really teach him what a flank is—a way to move him around the sheep to reposition him to take control from another point. It also helps him flank freely.

 

Things to watch out for are: Dog drawing up—ending the flank—when he wants to. Depending on what kind of eye he has, you will see this happen based on what type of work he may be associating the flank with. In other words, if you introduced his flanks to him early on when he was driving, say, then you will see him flank a bit on the drive when asked but not really letting go of his sheep-and draw up somewhere that he thinks he should. Many people, happy that the dog took any flank at all, then follow his turning in with a walk up command. This reinforces the dog's tendency to not really flank freely but to think the flank is part of his hold on sheep. If you let him carry on, he is working you and you are not working him. Additionally, he never learns to fully let go on a flank.

 

It is really nice to see a dog take a packet of sheep and line them up and flank a bit on its own to adjust them, but I want to be able to determine when he will do this. Other times I may want to have a clean, free flank that moves the dog to where I want him to be in relation to the sheep without affecting the sheep. I want my dogs to be able to work both ways.

 

Another thing to watch out for is the dog not turning his head out when it flanks. That's why pulling them around you on an off balance flank helps. It breaks his eye contact on his way around and can relax him. Make sure when you do this exercise that you are at least as far away from the sheep as he is—on the same arc. Otherwise you will either be teaching him to pull into his sheep on a flank without meaning to or making him turn and go backwards to flank, neither of which is good. Backwards makes him out of contact and into his sheep causes him to think inside flanks can be sliced.

 

Make sure when you work flanks, you start them just as a flank exercise and then add some work to this exercise which is what I meant when I said too add your work to the flanks. By that I mean, once he is flanking correctly for a while, stop him somewhere on the circle, I usually stop them somewhere in the area behind me, and ask them to walk up onto their sheep to drive. Change the location that you do this from so he learns he can walk up and move the sheep from any positioning. That will help relieve his tension. I do not let my dogs walk up and take the sheep unless they give proper room on their flanks. I make them keep flanking until they relax and widen out. Sliced flanks are usually a dog trying to get to his sheep the fastest route possible. So to let him have his sheep after slicing is counter productive. Also, it un-nerves the sheep and some tense dogs then react to the sheep by getting tenser. Do this a bit but then flank the dog to balance and let him fetch so you don't lose that along the way—very important!

 

Flanks on command are unnatural so letting them have their sheep and use their balance and natural after schooling the flanks gives you a dog that will tolerate this training and learn to work both ways—on command and naturally. They learn that flanks are a step to having the sheep rather than flanks only taking their control of the stock away from them.

 

If you flank him and he starts the wrong direction, which you will see when you start moving about for these flank exercises, don't keep saying the flank. Stop him-wait til you see his brain settle-you will see it in his eyes and face-then flank him again. Give his brain a chance to let the old idea go. If he takes it wrong again, you may have to step in to help him. Then ease yourself to a point through practice where he won't need your help. Make this a practice and you will see him relax if he takes a wrong flank-not panic. Because he knows you are giving him a chance to think.

 

Another thing to do is ask for the harder flank. Many people only ask for the easy flank. Do the flanking exercises in a circle and then apply them to his work-like to a fetch or drive. Don't do it at any distance too far. Then look which way he is leaning and ask for the difficult flank-the one in the direction he is not thinking about or leaning into. Many folks don't realize they always ask for what the dog is already wanting to do and then go to a trial or execute some work and need a tough flank and the dogs are terribly uncomfortable. You need to put this into practice to be able to ask for it when you want it.

 

So a training session for me would be to go out and gather the sheep. I would then fetch them to me and work only the flanks-on balance and off balance for a little while as schooling. I would add some drives to these flanks and give the dog his sheep for a bit so not to lose the natural. Then I would take the dog away and gather the sheep again. On the fetch I would ask for some flanks just to keep the dogs ability and willingness to give them to me. Flank the dog back to balance and continue the fetch. Once to me, I then work more flanks and then the drive asking for some flanks occasionally on the drive.

 

Once the dog is flanking with confidence on and off pressure, start parallel driving. Walk parallel but a distance away from the dog to be close enough if he needs you but far enough away to give him the responsibility of the drive and flanks. Then ask for flanks on the cross drive-especially inside flanks. Make sure the dog turns out to take them. Ask for the hard flanks. If the dog cannot give them to you, take the exercise right to that spot to help him understand what you want. So not stand a distance away yelling. If he knew how to do it he would. Be willing to go back to the showing phase-the schooling. If he doesn't turn out on the flanks, work the flanks to get the proper shape.

 

Before too long you will be able to do any piece or work and freely flank your dog in any direction. Just don't build on faulty training. Go from A to B to C to D and not A to D. Going back to retrain is difficut. If he has trouble, he doesn't quite get it. Break it down til he does and then put the pieces together. That way you can go and trouble shoot any area that needs attention without confusing the dog.

 

Happy New Year

 

Carol

[kelpiegirl]

Carol

Thank you for writing. I read this once, but believe I will have to actually take notes to remember it all. Very good sense what you say.

[Guest carol campion]

Carol

Thank you for writing. I read this once, but believe I will have to actually take notes to remember it all. Very good sense what you say.

 

 

Yeah, kind of long winded. Wendy asked me to elaborate. Be careful what you wish for!!

 

Hopefully someone will get something out of it if they have the patience to read through it.

 

Carol

[GOOSEDOGS]

Carol, this is exactly what I need to do for Amos. His slicing sends the sheep running then he's afraid of losing them and off we go! Just traing his flanks to square up and letting him relax, I think will make a big difference. Joan