down styles

[kelpiegirl]

When we first started working, it took a bit for me to get a good down on her. We finally achieved that. One thing that I have noticed of late though, is that when I ask for a down, in certain instances, she will down her front, and keep her butt in the air. This is usually when I have stopped her when another dog is working, and sometimes when I am about to send her for her sheep. Do your dogs do this? Have you seen it erode into something worse?

[Wendy V]

Have you seen it erode into something worse?

 

Yes, a butt in the air is a compromise at best. Down is down. Think of a down as putting a dog in "neutral". A butt in the air reflects the mind being amoungst the sheep, not in "neutral", awaiting your next command.

[painted_ponies]

This is Violet's favorite method of paying lip service to my requests for a down. There's a yoga position that looks just like it - it's called the pose of the cat. Anyway, I don't accept the cat position as compliance. Nice try, no cigar. But I don't think it will erode into something worse as long as you just insist she go ahead and lie down properly.

 

Faith has an even better one. She lies down with her front and back ends, but sticks her back legs out behind her so she can scoot like a frog towards the sheep. What, Ma? I'm "down." You didn't say I had to be still, too!

[Shoofly]

I think it depends on the dog and his mindset. If the dog is doing it to avoid really stopping, then i fix it. If the dog's attitude is good and he's just trying to be ready to do the next thing (say covering breaking sheep or something), i don't worry about it. You just have to decide why the dog isn't all the way down and decide if it's a good thing or a bad thing. It's more about the dog's attitude than physical position.

[1sheepdoggal]

I have an older gal that started out doing that, but then just turned it into a standing stop. She's been at it for a couple of months now, and seems to be able to handle it. Some times she'll still down, but most of the time she perfers to stop and stand. Yours may be in that trasistion stage.

[kelpiegirl]

Lucy has never broken when she does the butt in the air thing- I think since I had to work so hard on getting a down in the first place, that she has learned now, that I will release her, so she is ready. She is very keen. I will make sure that there is no scooting ahead though.... But, a side note, is that now when I down her on the deck before we go to the car, she also butts in the air... Fresh, that one.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Cord does this quite often. Sometimes it means he's uncomfortable with the way the sheep are busting around (which never happens here! ). Other times it's kind of his version of "My body is lying down, but in my mind I'm chasing sheep." And finally, sometimes, it means he's giving me as much as he can at that particular moment for whatever reason. If he previously just blew me off, and I corrected him and he responded, then I'll take anything there, although I'll hope for something besides the butt-in-the-air move next time.

[Olivia]

When Carlie was young I had a horrible time getting a down on her. She would rather climb a tree than down on sheep. We worked on her and did end up with a down and I thought all was good. Then the older she has gotten the more her down has turned into a standing stop. I was worried about it and asked a friend that is a very good handler and he watched her work and commented about how much more comfortable and confident she was when she could stand. We finally figured that she felt like she was't in control of her sheep when down but felt very much in control when standing which translated into nicer releases into flanks, etc. She wasn't chasing sheep in her mind, she just felt more confident in a stand. She will still down in some situations (fetching) but in others (shedding being an example) she prefers to stand.

 

Just my $0.02.

[Pipedream Farm]

When you ask for a down do you want your dog all the way down (for example to reduce the pressure on the sheep) or is “stop moving” good enough?

 

If you want "on your belly", then enforce it; if a stop is good enough then let it slide (but enforce the no movement).

 

Some dogs have enough presence/power/youthful enthusiasm/tension on sheep that to reduce the pressure on the stock you want them on their bellies; some don't make the sheep as nervous and they can be left on their feet in a stand.

 

(Just another way of describing what Robin told you)

 

Mark