hillfarm Posted November 26, 2007 Report Share Posted November 26, 2007 I am ready to shop for new sheep, after having suffolks for the past two years to work my dogs on I am ready to try a new breed. The ranch where I started my first two dogs had barbados and barbados crosses, they were fairly light and pretty easy for my young dogs to work with. The suffolks were fine for my experienced dogs, but definitely not so great for pups as they loved to stand and fight or scatter to all 4 corners of the arena I have been looking towards either Dorsets, or maybe one of the hair breeds-St croix, barbados or maybe even dorpers. I know the ranch I used to train at has now switched to Dorpers and Dorper crosses but I have not had a chance to work with them. Any recomendations? I would rather not shear if I can get away from it. And I have a new pup coming up that is very promising and I would really love to get him some nice sheep to start on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OkieJenna Posted November 26, 2007 Report Share Posted November 26, 2007 I love my Katahdins for training young dogs. I have worked Barbs before too and thought that things were just moving too quickly with the sheep to properly focus on my dog. I have a Dorper ram and he will challenge any dog every chance he gets. Needless to say he is never used anymore unless I have a dog I want to challenge. I have heard that Dorpers have a tendancy to get a little sluggish, but my ram is the only one I have to compare with. Also, keep in mind that not all Dorpers shed completely. My ram keeps his wool on his back, but sheds the rest of his body. I would say if you get a chance, work a few different breeds until you find what you like, but I love my Katahdins and Kat/Dorper crosses! I also plan to bring in a few Barbs to mix in and change things up for my dogs. Keep them looking for and paying attention to those flight zones. My Kats were dog broke pretty quickly. Hope this helps. Good luck and keep us updated with what you choose. Jenna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted November 26, 2007 Report Share Posted November 26, 2007 I don't think breed is as important as the fact that whatever sheep you're using are dog broke and have been handled properly by dogs so they haven't developed bad habits and are suitable for youngsters to be started on. That said, I seem to have had more luck finding suitable puppy sheep in the hair breed (ktahdins and dorpers, not barbs) category, but that could simply be because those breeds are more prevalent and the greater available numbers increase the likelihood of being able to find well broke sheep. In my experience, the dorpers can get heavy fairly quickly (and too heavy sheep are just as bad as too light for puppy training). If you had enough to rotate them out when they started to get really slow, then I think they'd work fine. The bonus is that they make good market lambs, so you can sell the excess and keep new blood (via new lambs) coming in. Where I used to work my dogs, the katahdins seemed to stay fresher longer than the dorpers did, FWIW. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hillfarm Posted November 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 Where I used to work my dogs, the katahdins seemed to stay fresher longer than the dorpers did, FWIW. I have heard that Dorsets stay fresh longer too is this true? My suffolks were pretty good for the first year, Dog broke fairly fast ( I used my VERY experienced dogs to break them in) and worked pretty well, then when they reached full size they became heavy and just plain nasty for even my strongest most experienced dogs to work so off they went to a breeder and now I am trying to decide what to buy and where in the world to buy them! Around here Suffolk is the breed of choice, I cannot find anything else. Does anyone know anybody in Oregon or Idaho who raises Katahdins or Dorsets? I have found a St croix breeder fairly close but have no experience with these kind of sheep. Has anyone worked with St Croix sheep? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted November 28, 2007 Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 Dorsets actually don't stay fresh all that long, although they are a nice all around sheep for learning on - they break fast if treated right, and stay at a nice level of "broke" for a good long time - or rather many individuals. I know a lot of times I'll go to a person who has school sheep and they'll point out an ancient sheep and say, "That's my favorite puppy sheep" and it's a Dorset or strong Dorset cross. I know my old girl who was my faithful puppy sheep was a Dorset. Compared to Suffolks though I guess you'd think they were light as air after years and years still! Probably anything would seem so! You do have to shear Dorsets though they have a nice light fleece, rarely suffering from wool blindness. There are some folks up the road from me who raise the St. Croixs. They seem to be extremely nice sheep. I'd go for these, mixing them with the Tunis and my BFL for a maternal cross with a southeastern flair, if I could afford to buy in. The ones I've seen (two different flocks, two different genetics) are somewhat meatier looking and milkier, apparently - the one flock is a milk sheep flock. I think you would have extremely good luck with the St Croix alone, and/or if you have a market for meaty lambs, the St. Croix with a Suffolk terminal sire. That would give you a nice mix of different stock to work depending on how many replacements you keep and how long you hold on to your market lambs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogtta Posted November 28, 2007 Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 Here is a directory of sheep breeders that mite help you find some breeders in your area www.nebraskasheep.com/directory/Breeds/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hillfarm Posted November 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 [Thanks i will check them out tonite. I looked under a directory for oregon sheep breeders but could not find anything close with the right kind of sheep. Lisa h Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hillfarm Posted November 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 [ I think you would have extremely good luck with the St Croix alone , Thanks for the info on the St Croix, I had never heard of them until I started looking for hair sheep. I wouldn't mind shearing a lighter sheep, the darn Suffolks are hard with my Fibromyalgia, they are so darn heavy and take so long for me to shear. lisa h Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted November 28, 2007 Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 I wouldn't mind shearing a lighter sheep, the darn Suffolks are hard with my Fibromyalgia, they are so darn heavy and take so long for me to shear. Definitely check out the St Croix then. They are a hair sheep and require no shearing at all. And, the lady that has the milking flock near me is like 90 pounds soaking wet - They are a very docile breed and on the smaller side, well-grown ewes around 150 lbs. I'm with ya on the easy to handle sheep. My first priority for my youngsters is for them to learn to hold the sheep to me quietly so I don't have to manhandle them or chase them around any more than I need to! And I like the quiet breeds and the moderate sized ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthfieldNick Posted November 28, 2007 Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 Pat Shannahan raises Katahdins in Idaho. I have a ram I got from him two years ago. Best thing about buying sheep from a dog trainer/trialer- they come broke! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hillfarm Posted November 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2007 Oh yes, broke would be nice! I could get my younger dogs going sooner that way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthfieldNick Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 Another lovely thing about Pat's sheep: he culls for a runny nose... he's gone trialing so much, his sheep have to do it themselves. A friend of mine has a ram from him who as, oh, 11 or 12, and still breeding! Funny, your handle keeps throwing me off. I manage a flock here under the name Hill Farm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hillfarm Posted December 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2007 Hillfarm seems to be a common name for sheep farms! Where in Idaho is Pat located? I tried to do a google search but nothing showed up. Does he have a website? Lisa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCStarkey Posted December 6, 2007 Report Share Posted December 6, 2007 Hillfarm seems to be a common name for sheep farms! Where in Idaho is Pat located? I tried to do a google search but nothing showed up. Does he have a website? Lisa Hi Lisa, Patrick is in Caldwell, Idaho, and his website is: http://www.patrickshannahan.com/ I hope that this information helps. Regards to all, nancy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hillfarm Posted December 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2007 thanks so much, Caldwell is close enough for me to consider going there to purchase sheep. Lisa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgt Posted December 6, 2007 Report Share Posted December 6, 2007 Last I heard, Patrick had a bunch of sheep for sale. Don't know if that's still true. I've worked his sheep a lot; they are probably nice for your purposes. charlie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rac Posted December 6, 2007 Report Share Posted December 6, 2007 I would agree with Charlie in that Pat's sheep would probably work for you. I've found Katahdins to be good mothers and fairly easy keepers. Some time ago I bought some St. Croix to work with my dogs and mix into the flock. The previous owners used dogs to handle the sheep, but you'd have never known it. They ran like deer. Thankfully they didn't go over the fences. I wound up breaking them by mixing them into my working groups one at a time. One St. Croix would lighten up the whole group. Can be a nice effect, but not for training a young dog. Ray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hillfarm Posted December 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2007 One St. Croix would lighten up the whole group. Can be a nice effect, but not for training a young dog. Thanks for letting me know about the St Croix, I want light but not too light. A mixed herd would be ideal for me since my older dogs can work just about anything. Lisa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackacre Posted December 7, 2007 Report Share Posted December 7, 2007 Hmmm. I wouldn't call my St. Croix deer, although the new lambs sure can be sprightly. For a while. Good stamina in the heat, mind you. However, they're certainly not particularly hardy, kind of feeble actually. Easy handling; they're weak as water and give up in seconds, in contrast to the Border Cheviots that fight like lions and are incredibly strong for their size and weight. Could be a regional difference of course; they've been pretty rare around here (Canada) until recently, so the ones I started with might well have been seriously inbred and cull material a la Bill's take on the rare breed crowd. A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hillfarm Posted December 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2007 Thanks for all your input! I have had experience with Barbados and Suffolks and thats it. Can't wait to try somehthing else this spring. I am definitely leaning towards the Katahdins, with maybe a couple of St. Croix thrown in for good measure. Now another question, I have 6 dogs to work, three very experienced, sheep/cattle/duck dogs, two started 2 year olds, and Rags the 4 month old pup. I want to be able to keep the sheep fresh, so how many should I have? What is a good number to be able to have good working groups for all the dogs if I work my dogs at least 3 times a week, twice to three runs per dog? I don't want to end up with too few and have them wear out or become dog sour too quickly. Lisa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted December 8, 2007 Report Share Posted December 8, 2007 I'd start with a flock of 200 good ewes and build up from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackacre Posted December 8, 2007 Report Share Posted December 8, 2007 Bill! Jeez. Lisa, it's more in how you work them rather than numbers. I have anywhere from 25 to 50 breeding ewes (and their lambs if I breed). I'll keep a few lambs for replacements, so the group as a whole is always reasonably fresh. Sheep that are constantly worked by young dogs (ie a lot of outrun/lift/fetch) or weak/useless/coyote-type dogs will get sour very quickly. The safest place for them is right with you, so that's what they'll always try to do. Or they'll learn that they can beat the dog and get attitude. Sheep are not dumb, eh? If you make sure to work your sheep with your advanced dogs and fix whatever bad habit the sheep develop from being used to train the young dogs, they should stay useful for a long time. Breed dependent of course, as discussed above (I haven't ready most of the thread but I assume the available options were discussed.) A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted December 8, 2007 Report Share Posted December 8, 2007 Bill! Jeez. Well, she asked! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hillfarm Posted December 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2007 25 to 50 sounds very doable and was about was I was thinking. I do use my older dogs to correct the sheep if they get to pulling stuff on the young ones, I have one dog who can just look at them and they behave like angels for a week or two. He is my go to guy when they start behaving like buttheads! Yes sheep are smart, one of my last ones decided I needed protecting at all costs so I had to quit using her as she would attack the dogs and the other ewes if they got near me, Plus she followed me everywhere if she was out, dont have any Idea why, she wasnt bottle fed, just her thing I guess. So looks like I will be doing more fencing this spring so I can have patures to rotate for my 25 to 50 new sheep! Thanks again for your input, Lisa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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