Cheviots

[kelpiegirl]

Anyone have experience working these sheep? What do you think of them?

[juliepoudrier]

Most are extremely light, IMO. If your dog is really pushy, you will probably have sheep scattering to the four winds and over your fences too....

 

J.

[Pearse]

Love 'Em!

 

Light, smart, and crafty. will take a dog/handler to the cleaners if they aren't "right". Love trialing on them and if I was building a sizeable flock, i'd lean towards the North Country Cheviots. They are also very nice looking sheep, but not for the faint of heart.

 

Pearse

[blackacre]

Hey Pearse,

 

Come on up and bring your wife. We're having a series of fun trials this winter. Mine will be at the end of January:

 

 

Not only are they fast as lightning, these particular ones are spooky as hell ever since one of their brethren got picked off by a coyote last week. Needless to say, they're being put away every night since then,

 

A

[SoloRiver]

I love them. If I could have sheep, they would be on my short list. I don't have a broad experience with them so it may be sampling error, but they are fun to work -- they are light, and they will bolt, but if the dog is right they stop running, unlike some other sheep I can think of (*cough* Barbs *cough*) that spook and then just head for the hills without looking back. This means that if your dog pushes too hard, but then lets up, he gets rewarded for taking pressure off and therefore learns how to modulate his actions instead of just learning that he loses them.

 

They're also a good size and extremely attractive -- cotton puffballs with black eyeliner.

 

I have no idea how they are as keepers.

[Chesney's Girl]

Early on when we had a couple of them in the group at Anna's and had to move them to the big pasture for walk abouts. I hated them, because of my dog. Now that Chesney is getting better about not ridding their butts they actually are not that bad and work nice for teaching him his driving and flanks now. I think there is still some hesitation when I see them and I'm up next to work my dog, but the more I work them the more I see they have a good purpose, teaching my boy to size up his sheep real quick or we will be working a lot harder than we should.

[Pearse]

We haven't had enough snow here yet Andrea to get the dogs used to doing outruns with snowshoes on, but if I get 'em winterized, I'll keep the invitation in mind.

 

Pearse

[Bill Fosher]

Andrea --

 

Can you point me to a listing of the fun trial dates? I might be able to come up and provide some entertainment value.

[juliepoudrier]

Cheviots are very easy keepers. Most of the folks I know with flocks of cheviots have little to do for them in the way of maintenance to keep them healthy. They are hardy. But if you want to produce market lambs, they are also rather slow growing (I'm talking about border cheviots here--I have no experience with NCCs) and don't seem to reach full size until they are a couple of years old.

 

Cheviots can teach your dogs about pace, but they can also teach your dog how to slice at the top, because most flocks I know are not inclined to stand around waiting on the dog to get there but will take off ahead of time unless someone is holding them for you. One friend's flock, which normally gets no grain, is difficult to hold even with entircements. Then again I know of another flock, used for a trial last year, that would give no quarter to a dog. I had the pleasure of setting them for the trial and they were a tricky bunch. If your dog wasn't *just right* there would be trouble: too tight and they would turn to face the dog and refuse to move, perhaps a bit uncharacteristically, but they would also run given the opportunity. They can also be quite wily and will take every opportunity to outsmart a dog or human.

 

I have four in my flock (though they are soon heading out of here since I am trying to consolidate to just two breeds, karakul and tunis). I love the way they look (their lambs have to be some of the most adorable on Earth) and their hardiness, but they certainly aren't suitable for young dogs. They have pretty nice fleeces if you're into using the fleeces for stuff.

 

J.

[Black Watch Debatable]

I have Border Cheviots and am in the process of consolidating my flock to BCs. They aren't for everybody, but I love them tons. They are bold, smart, independent sheep that can scatter like gazelles if the mood strikes, or stand and stare a weak dog out of the pasture. As Julie says, they are healthy, hardy and easy keepers. This thread discusses them a bit.

[kelpiegirl]

I worked these guys at a trial this weekend. I did LOVE their looks Something about the sharp features of the head, the lay of the wool and the eye liner around the eyes. The ram was funny- he had what looked like a beard- he looked like an Amish man.

 

Anyway, this was a ASTA trial, a spin off of ASCA- picture lots of obstacles, and nothing on the fence The poor advanced folks- frustration was the word for the day. Since us novice folks were able to walk along with our sheep, it was much easier Anyway, here are some things I noticed- 1) they ALL left the take pen like flying walendas and ran to the exhaust- every time. I think one BC was able to be directed to retrieve them before they made it all the way down. Okay, so mine did the same- I sent Lucy away- after they had settled into the corner, and then we had a stale mate. Not sure what I SHOULD have done, but what I did do, was go down there, size up the situation- I saw a dog working very hard to turn them, not giving an inch, and one ewe- the oldest- there was a lamb and another young ewe, just staring at the dog. Perhaps it was because they could see all their friends in the exhaust? Perhaps I should have sent her come by to flush them away from that corner? Most dogs who got them out quick basically ran down with abandon and chased the sheep out... Anyway, I some how- it is amazing how as you do this more, you just figure out what works well (as in the sheep will prefer this way, versus that, etc). So, we had to bring them back to the first set of panels, and then do a 180 and go through. Once we got them off the exhaust they worked nicely. They were light, but they did like the handler At one point I needed to get them through a foot bath sans water (it was FREAKIN' cold) and they decided at the last minute to go past it- this is where many many folks had problems- it became rather like a pen exercise where you do lots of circling... Anyway, I was able to flank Lucy, and we got one through. Toward the end I even got to pull my first ribbon off a sheep Anyway, I liked these sheep- for some dogs they split into three different directions- and stayed there. What do you do with that? I noted that as long as things remained smooth, the sheep were fine, if you stopped, and say, got on your dog- they might take that opportunity to bolt. One dog did get pummeled in the corner- so these were definitely not shrinking violets....

[kelpiegirl]

dbl post

[blackacre]

Hey, that'd be cool Bill. Format alert: we're doing a modified arena trial format at two of the trials due to numbers of sheep overwintering and size of field. Nonetheless, we've had a lot of fun with this in the past.

 

<<Dear fellow sheepdog enthusiasts, - triallers and spectators alike..

 

For relief of trialling season withdrawl and great training opportunities, we are offering 3 fun trials around southern Ontario/GTA.

 

1. Sue Jewel's in Utopia (Barrie) - Sunday, November 25th, 2007

2. Viki Kidd's in Georgetown - Sunday, December 30th, 2007

3. Andrea de Kenedy's in Stouffville - Sunday. January 27th, 2008

 

The format at 1 & 3 will be arena style based on points and time; # 2 will be a field trial type with a few twists.  Along with running your dog(s), there will opportunties to judge, hold, work in the pens etc - all the other cool stuff in the trialling experience.  We will need everyone to pitch in make this happen; and what better place to learn than in a relaxed atmosphere amongst friends.

 

The class structures will also be relaxed - everyone trying the courses at the level of assistance you feel your dog requires. (i.e. the N/N handlers can walk with their dogs on the drives, standing away from post on big outruns, trying your dog out at a higher level etc.) 

And the big bonus...there will be a super-duper 1st, 2nd & 3rd prize for combined scores over the 3 events!

 

Cost per entry/per trial will be $10.00; We hope to be able to hold a couple of go-rounds each day to to allow multiple runs...of course the daylight and # of entries will dictate.  Trials will start at 9:00 am each day to get the most of the day.  Entry is the morning of the event - but e-mail notice of intent to attend would be appreciated.

Bad weather cancellation announcement will be sent out via e-mail within 48 hours of event.

 

Lunches may be sandwiches ordered in or potluck or served chilly -- something...this small, but important detail to be determined by each event host closer to the date.

 

See you all there - and tell your friends too!

 

Regards,

Sue, Viki & Andrea<<

[kelpiegirl]

Sounds great Andrea- Bill- wanna ride up together???

 

Hey, that'd be cool Bill. Format alert: we're doing a modified arena trial format at two of the trials due to numbers of sheep overwintering and size of field. Nonetheless, we've had a lot of fun with this in the past.

 

<<Dear fellow sheepdog enthusiasts, - triallers and spectators alike..

 

For relief of trialling season withdrawl and great training opportunities, we are offering 3 fun trials around southern Ontario/GTA.

 

1. Sue Jewel's in Utopia (Barrie) - Sunday, November 25th, 2007

2. Viki Kidd's in Georgetown - Sunday, December 30th, 2007

3. Andrea de Kenedy's in Stouffville - Sunday. January 27th, 2008

 

The format at 1 & 3 will be arena style based on points and time; # 2 will be a field trial type with a few twists. Along with running your dog(s), there will opportunties to judge, hold, work in the pens etc - all the other cool stuff in the trialling experience. We will need everyone to pitch in make this happen; and what better place to learn than in a relaxed atmosphere amongst friends.

 

The class structures will also be relaxed - everyone trying the courses at the level of assistance you feel your dog requires. (i.e. the N/N handlers can walk with their dogs on the drives, standing away from post on big outruns, trying your dog out at a higher level etc.)

And the big bonus...there will be a super-duper 1st, 2nd & 3rd prize for combined scores over the 3 events!

 

Cost per entry/per trial will be $10.00; We hope to be able to hold a couple of go-rounds each day to to allow multiple runs...of course the daylight and # of entries will dictate. Trials will start at 9:00 am each day to get the most of the day. Entry is the morning of the event - but e-mail notice of intent to attend would be appreciated.

Bad weather cancellation announcement will be sent out via e-mail within 48 hours of event.

 

Lunches may be sandwiches ordered in or potluck or served chilly -- something...this small, but important detail to be determined by each event host closer to the date.

 

See you all there - and tell your friends too!

 

Regards,

Sue, Viki & Andrea<<

[painted_ponies]

I like being run over by Cheviots better than by Katahdins or Barbados. Cheviots have that nice springy wool that makes for a more comfy collision.

[Guest carol campion]

I worked these guys at a trial this weekend. I did LOVE their looks Something about the sharp features of the head, the lay of the wool and the eye liner around the eyes. The ram was funny- he had what looked like a beard- he looked like an Amish man.

 

Anyway, this was a ASTA trial, a spin off of ASCA- picture lots of obstacles, and nothing on the fence The poor advanced folks- frustration was the word for the day.

 

Anyway, I liked these sheep- for some dogs they split into three different directions- and stayed there. What do you do with that? I noted that as long as things remained smooth, the sheep were fine, if you stopped, and say, got on your dog- they might take that opportunity to bolt. One dog did get pummeled in the corner- so these were definitely not shrinking violets....

 

Julie

 

On any breed you ask about, you need to consider what dogs are usually working that particular flock in question. That in turn will color the attitude and behavior of that flock in addition to the flock's breed qualities.

 

If the trial you were at was in CT, those sheep are regularly worked by non Border Collies and I imagine it is a flock many beginner dogs of other breeds work on in a small area very often. So their treatment and their behavior has been impacted by those experiences compounded by their breed characteristics.

 

You can always tell the quality and kind of dogs by the behavior of the flock.

 

I have owned and bred Cheviots and Cheviot/Border Leicester crosses for 20 years. They are, by nature, wiley, robust, hardly sheep that are great for dogs-beginner or advanced. They will let you know if your dog or handling is wrong in a heartbeat. They do not tolerate poor or rough treatment by the dogs and will let you know pretty fast if your dog is pushing too hard or slicing or cutting short an outrun. They lean on a dog like no other and dogs worked more regularly on them develop the ability to handle difficult sheep. When the dog is right, they can be walked about.

 

However, once spoiled by and harshly treated by poor quality rough workers, they are hard to change.

 

Carol

[Bill Fosher]

One livestock trucker I know said he make more money hauling Cheviots than any other breed. You see, he could get twice as many on the trailer because half of the sheep were in the air at any given time.

 

As Carol has pointed out, they're very good for teaching a dog how to handle sheep, because if they're handled right, they work nicely. If they're not handled right, it's off to the races.

 

------------

 

Poop. I won't be able to hit your trial Andrea. I'm going to be away at a grazing conference the weekend before, and getting the stars to line up for two weekends away in a row is far to much to hope for.

[juliepoudrier]

On any breed you ask about, you need to consider what dogs are usually working that particular flock in question. That in turn will color the attitude and behavior of that flock in addition to the flock's breed qualities. ... You can always tell the quality and kind of dogs by the behavior of the flock. ... However, once spoiled by and harshly treated by poor quality rough workers, they are hard to change.

Carol makes some very important points here. I dread trialing on a certain flock around here because they are so badly dogged and soured as to be rather unpleasant to work with. Of course, you could also get a flock of sheep that's rarely worked by dogs, and then breed characteristics--and your dog's behavior--are more likely to take precedence when it comes to how they work. But even the best shepherded sheep can get cranky if the weather is bad or it's the time of day they'd prefer to be grazing, or they've been rerun a couple of times, or badly treated by dogs or people at the trial, so don't fall into the trap of automatically blaming the shepherding for the behavior of the sheep at a trial. I think once you've been at it a while, you will learn what flocks are likely to be troublesome because of poor shepherding and which are just plain tough even though well treated at home. That's the risk of generalizing characteristics of course.

 

J.

[kelpiegirl]

I think the sheep did pretty well, in general. Like I said, I liked the sheep Any time I can get my dog on different sheep in different places, it is a good thing.

[Guest carol campion]

I dread trialing on a certain flock around here because they are so badly dogged and soured as to be rather unpleasant to work with. ...........

 

I think once you've been at it a while, you will learn what flocks are likely to be troublesome because of poor shepherding and which are just plain tough even though well treated at home. That's the risk of generalizing characteristics of course.

 

J.

 

Julie is right. You can't generalize.

 

I need to clarify that I am not talking about shepherding. I am talking about dogging.

 

If the flock used is regularly dogged for training/trialling, then it is wise to know what dogs and what level of dogs is regularly used on them and it will give you some idea as to why they may be responding to the dogs the way they are. This helps you recognize if its something you need to work on—if it is your dog that is causing the sheeps' reaction, or if it is their old history you are meeting.

 

Fresh sheep that are not dogged much can hopefully give you an idea of the quality of dog and the quality of its training because you are not dealing with an old history of bad dogging that consists of—but not limited to—weak dogs, chasing dogs, dogs that won't hold the pressure, etc. There have been some trials in New England run on fresh/undogged sheep where there has been a pet BC that kind of hangs out with the shepherd and is totaly non threatening. Those sheep have no respect for a dog. Never been chased, etc; but never been made to move off a dog. And don't. So again-you are meeting that flocks' learned response to dogs.

 

The treatment of the flock away from the trials—good and bad—has a resulting impact on the sheep that may not be soley characteristic of the breed.

 

Carol

[juliepoudrier]

I need to clarify that I am not talking about shepherding. I am talking about dogging.

I see them as one and the same. If I, as shepherd of my flock, allow them to be overused, abused, chased, mistreated, harrassed, etc., (or just worked repeatedly by a lot of untrained dogs), with the result that I end up with sour, difficult to work sheep then that's poor shepherding in my opinion. But I guess if you're looking at it from the POV of a flock that exists strictly or mostly for dog training, then regarding the degree of dogging as separate from shepherding makes sense. I hadn't thought of it that way.

 

J.

[Bo Peep]

I loved my Cheviot's- low to the ground, flighty, good for experienced dogs, yet they seemed to dog-break easy, meaning that they knew "I" was safe and came running to me causing the dog to cut in at the top. Very easy keepers and cute to boot! Their wool doesn't grow too fast. I don't eat mutton so I can't tell you about the meat. I DID go from Cheviot's to a Katalin Barbados cross. Never had to re-group those.