Is it possible to get an adult LGD?

[painted_ponies]

I have two canine neighbors, whom I call the Ghost and the Darkness (no idea what their real names are because the people who own them are uncommonly unfriendly). G&D are some sort of chow-mixed-with-large-mongrel who, for the past eight years have roamed at will, destroying porch furniture and ornamental plantings and trying their best to knock up the neighborhood bitches. With little success, thank goodness, due to the fact that most of my neighbors are pretty good shots with an air rifle.

 

Anyway. As I chased them off my farm this morning before leaving for work, it occurred to me that these guys will present a real hazard to any sheep I acquire. I'd already decided that I'll use an LGD, but everything I've read recommends getting a small pup and letting the sheep teach him or her the ropes. But how to do that with these marauding canine miscreants around? At best, they'll ignore a pup and wade right in amongst the sheep, and at worst they'll kill the pup.

 

So is it possible to buy adult LGDs? Do people even sell adult LGDs who are good at their jobs? If not, how will I manage to raise an LGD up to a size where s/he can defend him or herself and the sheep while still allowing him/her 24/7 access to at least some members of the flock?

 

ETA: I know a solution to the problem would simply be to shoot the dogs. However, even if I could bring myself to do it (and I probably could if I thought they were hurting one of my animals), DH is adamantly opposed to having firearms anywhere on the farm. And of course asking the owners to keep the Ghost and the Darkness on their own property will be an exercise in futility.

[Lenajo]

You really don't want to start a shooting feud with crazy neighbors. And in most places, unless the dog is actively attacking the livestock you can't shoot it. And then you better kill it, because if it crawls off the property wounded it becomes another matter (and in our area, a *large* court case of legend LOL)

 

You can get adult dogs, you just have to wait, watch, and usually...plan to pay up. And remember, a LGD is mostly deterent, not an attack dog. Domestic dogs are the hardest of predators to deal with because they don't respect normal territorial marks or retreat when threatened. Putting a young or pup LGD again these 2 dogs is basically putting a boy against 2 street thugs with knives. Even a adult LGD is liable to get really hurt.

 

A LGD would help though ( a grown one) as will good fences. If you humanely trap the 2 dogs on your property do you have a local Animal Control to call to pick them up? You don't *have* to tell them who the owners are if you aren't sure......and if the dogs are growling at you I'd be up front and tell the AC guy about it.

 

It's not nice, but stock killing dogs aren't either.

 

 

 

I have two canine neighbors, whom I call the Ghost and the Darkness (no idea what their real names are because the people who own them are uncommonly unfriendly). G&D are some sort of chow-mixed-with-large-mongrel who, for the past eight years have roamed at will, destroying porch furniture and ornamental plantings and trying their best to knock up the neighborhood bitches. With little success, thank goodness, due to the fact that most of my neighbors are pretty good shots with an air rifle.

 

Anyway. As I chased them off my farm this morning before leaving for work, it occurred to me that these guys will present a real hazard to any sheep I acquire. I'd already decided that I'll use an LGD, but everything I've read recommends getting a small pup and letting the sheep teach him or her the ropes. But how to do that with these marauding canine miscreants around? At best, they'll ignore a pup and wade right in amongst the sheep, and at worst they'll kill the pup.

 

So is it possible to buy adult LGDs? Do people even sell adult LGDs who are good at their jobs? If not, how will I manage to raise an LGD up to a size where s/he can defend him or herself and the sheep while still allowing him/her 24/7 access to at least some members of the flock?

 

ETA: I know a solution to the problem would simply be to shoot the dogs. However, even if I could bring myself to do it (and I probably could if I thought they were hurting one of my animals), DH is adamantly opposed to having firearms anywhere on the farm. And of course asking the owners to keep the Ghost and the Darkness on their own property will be an exercise in futility.

[painted_ponies]

Thanks for the info. No, I'm afraid Animal Control isn't an option. They will come and set traps, but will not pick up a domestic animal someone else has trapped. And if Animal Control were at my place setting traps, I think the neighbors would have a pretty good idea who called them. Not that I care what they think of me, but I wouldn't put it past them to retaliate against my animals. Naturally my dogs aren't out unless I'm with them, but my horses are.

 

The Ghost and the Darkness have been snarling and growling at me for eight years, but I don't believe they really mean it. When I first moved here, I tried everything to make friends, up to and including sitting down in the middle of the road so I wouldn't seem threatening and saying nice things to them. Eh. I finally just got used to them following me, teeth bared and making a godawful racket, anytime I went past their place. I reckon if they were going to actually bite me, they'd have done it by now. They're afraid of the collies though - the creepy-crawly crouch freaks 'em out - so I haven't had much lip out of them since Faith and Vi moved in.

 

Anyway, I imagine it would be tricky timing, trying to get an adult LGD, which I guess is available only rarely, at the same time I got sheep. And I don't suppose I could have one without the other.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

I used to have a neighborhood dog that would go after me and bare his teeth as if he was going to bite me but never did. I then stopped my KFC a few days in a row and as I walked past, he would come running out to growl, I would ignore him and toss a few chunks of the KFC chicken down. In a week or so, he would run out and his tag would be wagging and no growl...I continue to share food with him but one day, he was gone . I have no idea what happened to him but the KFC chicken did the trick.

 

Diane

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I actually think you'd be OK getting a pup. Try to find someone who has one a bit older, more like four months old - if you aren't picky as to breed and sex you should be able to find an "extra" that someone couldn't sell from a litter, or a keeper that is available due to change in plans. This is how I got my Lu at not quite six months old.

 

Then you'd be keeping the sheep confined to acclimate them to the pup anyway for a few weeks. Make sure the space they are in at night is easily defensible and preferably close to the house.

 

It doesn't take long for an LGD to become a powerful deterrant. If the predator is neither numerous, nor clever like coyotes, and there's just a few sheep to defend, a good LGD should be fully up to the challenge by adolescence. It's good if you can stand by to help at first, but it shouldn't take long to discourage a couple of neighborhood dogs. I know plenty of people who started with pups, in fact most do, and it seems to work just fine.

 

Pups are much easier for beginners to work with. Adults are usually being sold for some reason, and troubleshooting established LGD behaviors is about as rewarding and pleasant an exercise as running one's hand through a meat grinder. A pup chosen with some care will learn the rules of your place more naturally, and you can squelch unacceptable behaviors as they emerge, in whatever way you choose.

 

And, with a pup, you get a wider selection and can be choosier within a tighter budget.

 

You're smart to be thinking of this now. I had no idea, added my first sheep just exactly ten years ago, and had them slaughtered by neighborhood dogs a month and a half later. I tried an adult, but didn't know how to stop him from slipping out of the fence - which was the reason I'd got him so cheaply - and lost another sheep while he was out gallavanting in the neighborhood. Someone shot him, but he was not seriously hurt, and went back to where I got him.

 

Fortunately someone talked me into trying the youngster - they had been using her littermate sister since she was a baby pup and she'd been protecting a flock of seventy sheep in our same area right from the start. The sister who was available had likewise been protecting a large flock all alone - the McRaes' up in VA, actually - and there was another littermate who had been flying solo since she was wee, at Donald McCaig's place. So we were pretty confident she could handle it, she being at that time already sixty pounds and pretty predator-wise.

 

Lu worked out perfectly. She had this weird thing later on where she'd nip the tails off the Katadhins and she did a little damage to lambs that were dothery before I realized that she was just trying to fix what was amiss and didn't know how. A little Stockholm tar applied to any wound, or to the head of any sick sheep, or any tail longer than the rest, and she soon figured out other less harmful ways to "help."

 

Well, good luck!

[bcnewe2]

I agree with Becca but I don't think I'd want them trying to fend off to chow type dogs right off the bat as young pups. Dogs are so different that coyotes. THey have no respect for the nature of things. It seems like the coyotes do. Since having my pups, they have kept the coyotes at bay since they were 4 months old. They are not vicious. I'd hate to find out otherwise but their barking has detered anything and everything since getting here. Yes we had a few trouble spots to wade though but so much easier than an adult dog.

 

Good fencing and a watchful eye might keep the 2 hounds at bay but they sure would worry me. My guard dogs are an expensive farm tool that I'd hate to get injured by some stupid chow dogs. I think they'd win hands down but at what price?

 

I think I might try the KFC chicken thing frist. Changing their attitudes might start things going in your favor.

 

Good luck

Kristen

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I think I might try the KFC chicken thing frist. Changing their attitudes might start things going in your favor.

 

Not to disagree - OK, I'm disagreeing - but I've had much more trouble with dogs that were people friendly, than ones that were wary of people. The ones that killed my sheep were all kids' dogs - two belonged to my next door neighbor and had been playing with his toddler grandkids all their lives. The other was a lab that was so sweet that we caught him easily just by calling him (never having seen him before in our lives), and later when we visited his home to discuss reparation, he didn't even bark when we came up the driveway.

 

We had another dog at our old place, the last couple of years, that would come try to stir the sheep up through the fence, and even try to get in the field. Again, a kids' dog with so little proper respect of people that you could chase her down with a stick and she'd just think you were trying to play. She is the only dog I've ever seen my dogs have to fight, and Tully had to take her down about twice a week. He hurt her so bad, once, that she was lame for two weeks, and still she came back - but she was just a wacko dog - an Aussie/BC mix of some kind.

 

There's a gang of truly aggressive dogs across the road from us here - the boys get into barking contests but they've never ventured closer than the woods outside our fence. For a long time the only way they knew where the boundaries were, was by the efforts of my two LGDs. They were used to having the run of this place before that, for years and years. Now they hardly dare venture out of their own yard.

 

Dogs mess with sheep because they are easy pickings. It's fun. But if there's any evidence that the sheep are protected, 90% of roaming dogs will forget about it. If they are in a small area where it's hard to get them stirred up even through the fence, and even a small fierce ball of fur comes out to claim the territory, and you are around to back Pup up, it should work fine.

 

The only reason I'd have to be nervous is if I'd heard of these dogs actually harming other neighborhood dogs on a regular basis. But even then two on one is poor odds, even for an experienced LGD. The less aggressive breeds have a lot of bite and fight inhibition which can actually be a problem in a real physical engagement - a dog that is suitable for a small farm is the kind that would rather give the intruder every chance possible to get away. Therefore, in that case, I'd be thinking less about a dog and more about secure fences and possibly a chat with the unfriendly owners about how you can a) shoot their dogs and sue for damages if you catch their dogs harming your stock.

[Lenajo]

Everybody we've talked to down here thats brought a pup into an established problem (domestic dogs, or very high numbers of coyotes) has has the pup killed or simply dissapear. We tried a pup here once long ago, and thought it was well bred LGD it was a major pita to deal with. We didn't know at the time that most people that raise them successfully use electronet or devices like drag chains that hit the electric fence. The pup wandered - taking the goats with her - and was constantly in trouble. Adolescence hit and she was dislocating lamb hips and killing weak or wormy lambs. We put her in with the rams to stop that, and then she didn't like the sheep at all. Then she was in the road, or on the neighbor's land, etc etc. Which is not only intolerable, but unsafe.

 

Overall it was a wreck, as I suspect it is with many farms who get LGD pups with the standard amount of information available...and the complication added to that of typical busy lives with most working off farm in the day time. With that atmosphere few farms are lucky enought to have a 24/7 in house dog trainers to back up a working pup correctly.

 

At the time we got our pup we little time to fuss with that, and fencing 80 acres to keep a slippery adolescent lgd on property is financially unreasonable, and on our back 40 physically impossible. You could keep pup locked up with drylot sheep, or a small pasture with airtight fencing, but there its not guarding where you need it, and instead incuring cost for all the hay your sheep are eating.

 

By luck we got 2 young adult dogs (I think they were just over a year) last year and with minimal intervention they've been great. At about 18 months they tag teamed a pit bull that came snooping into the sheep - the female held the sheep and the male chased the dog out.

 

I'd probably get a donkey before a pup for your situation. The donkey can work the outer field while you either train a pup or find a suitable young adult LGD. Donkeys have their own issues, but at least the dogs would learn the first lessons without possibly killing your puppy.

[Lenajo]

Rebecca has a point, the dog kills here were 95% dogs that were people friendly. It is the same with other farmers I know. The rare dogs that try for people too are usually dispatched of much faster in the neighborhood in general.

[juliepoudrier]

Okay, my two cents' worth. I personally wouldn't want to go through all the puppy stuff you hear about, but that's just me. You can find adult dogs, and sometimes the only reason they're available is because they lost their jobs (flock reduction, that sort of thing). If I had to choose between getting a pup or a seasoned dog that didn't require me supervising, having to use drags, preventing damage at lambing, etc., I *know* which I'd choose. Yes, you might pay more for a trained/experienced adult, but since I consider my *time* as money, too, it would be worth it to me to pay more to get a dog that's useful, right out of the box, so to speak.

 

That said, the advantage I can see to getting a pup is that you could acclimate it to the other critters on your property. It would be a real concern for me to bring in an adult, say, that's never been around cats, because my indoor/outdoor cats do cut through the sheep pasture.

 

Personally, I think the *first* line of defense should be good fencing. Good fencing will keep your stock (and hopefully your LGD) *in* and help to keep predators out. Some breeds of LGD are worse about roaming than others (it depends on whether they tend to be close guarding dogs or dogs that patrol a particular territory, which in the dog's mind might be larger than your actual property). I know of folks who have avoided predator problems solely through the use of good fencing, so I think that would be the first option if at all possible. If you have field fence, for example, with hot wire at the bottom, middle, and top, you are pretty much going to deter most critters from wanting to go under or over, which would take care of most canine type marauders. I know of people who use only electronet and say it's enough to deter predators. I don't know. I plan to use electronet *inside* my good perimeter fence.

 

I am on a working LGD list, and adult dogs do come available. I think if you wanted to take advantage of such an opportunity, you would have to be willing--as Becca said--to deal with potential training/behavior faults, but not always. For me, the ideal situation would be to bring in an experienced adult and then add a pup at a later date, as the pup could learn from the adult.

 

A caveat to all this: I don't have a working LGD, so I am not speaking from actual experience, just from anecdotal evidence and observation of others' dogs.

 

J.

[painted_ponies]

Thanks everybody. Don't worry - I tried making friends with the Ghost and the Darkness years ago, before I realized what PITAs they are. The one good quality they have is being slightly afraid of people - probably as a result of being run off everyone's property - and I don't want to mess with that.

 

I'm not sure how dog aggressive they are - most of the dogs I've seen them encounter are bitches so it's hard to judge by that. I know they run from Violet when she crouches and stares, and they run from Faith when she raises her hackles and barks. But then again, they're both bitches. So who knows. I've seen them get into a fight with each other where I thought one would kill the other, but that was over a bitch in season. I don't know why I broke it up - I'd be better off if only one were left - but I just couldn't stand to watch it.

 

Anyway, I'd intended to do a good field fence and run hot wire around it to discourage LGD and sheep from going a-wandering. How tall do y'all think I'd need to make it?

 

Becca, that must have been devastating to lose all your sheep so soon after getting them.

 

Julie - I thought you were getting a couple of adult LGDs? And would you mind sharing the link to the LGD list please? Sounds like somewhere I need to be to educate myself.

[bcnewe2]

Ok Becca I see your point but I was thinking of Sally's safty at this time. I haven't had any dog problems here only coyotes. In MO we had field fencing and that seemed to stop neighborhood dogs. Again I was there all the time so if I saw outside dogs snooping around I could shoo them on their way.

 

I loved raising my LGD's but I'm home just about 24/7 so I could stave off anything getting out of hand right away. I dog friend reminded me how lucky I am cause I don't have chewing puppies, or puppies going though puppy issues caues I'm home ready to correct them all the time. I can usually leave a 4 month old pup home out unsupervised when I do leave cause they are already trained while I'm there. I only crate train them for potty issues at night and so they are able to go in them when I need one.

 

I hear the horror stories of training young LGD's on sheep manners. Mine tried some things breifly and stopped right away, usually on the first correction. If I hadn't been home to catch them who klnows.

When they were younger they strayed abit but now they stay with the sheep at all times. So as long as I keep the sheep home they are right there with them.

 

I like shaping the pups in our way instead of wondering what they learned from somewhere else.

[juliepoudrier]

Yep, I can see starting with a pup if you're there to supervise most of the time. I just can't imagine working away from the farm and wondering what the pup was up to. I think some are quicker to accept corrections for misbehavior (I have a friend who eventually gave up on a youngster as she never could break him of bad habits), but the trick is being there to catch them in the act and then giving an appropriate correction. That's why I advocate trained adults to start with. I think it's kind of like border collies--some folks have the means to start out with a pup; others are better off getting a trained dog at first.

 

Sally,

The list is on Yahoo groups and is called WorkingLGDs. There are some folks there who have a lot of experience. You might also try posting on Bill Fosher's Sheep Production Forum as there's a section on livestock guardians there as well. I would start by researching the various breeds and their guarding attributes. Like I said some are close flock guardians, and some tend to be more ranging in their protective habits. If you live in an area where a roaming dog would not be welcome, then you'd want to look at the various breeds that stick closer to their flocks. There are a number of LGD breeders who post on Sheep-L too and although it's a sheep-oriented list, I don't think they'd mind LGD questions.

 

I am still supposed to be getting the two pyrs, but last I heard she still hadn't sold the flock and so still needed them. I need to touch base again.

 

J.

[KrisK]

Here's a link to a discussion about fencing that I had asked a while ago. It should be helpful

 

http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.p...&hl=fencing

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I'm a bit of a freak, I guess. I enjoyed raising LGD pups so much that for a while I was buying them, raising them to about six months, and selling them, just for the fun of it (I never sold them for much). I sold three that way. I only stopped doing it because I had to raise two of my own right before and right after the accident. I'd love to do it again but the next one I raise will be my own, again!

 

Some people certainly shouldn't mess with pups. I've mentioned that if predator pressure is great, you want a dog ready to go at it right away - and really you want at least two. A mature dog and a youngster (maybe two or so) can work fine in that type of situation.

 

If you are never around, get a trained dog. But remember that "trained" still means you've got to teach that dog the ropes at your place. What was acceptable at the place you bought the dog from, might not be tolerable to you. We all have different hills we are willing to die on. Someone who buys a dog from me will get a dog that is easily handled, responsive to people, and highly attentive to the sheep. But as long as the dog pays attention to the sheep, I don't care whether he goes over or under gates to check out various flocks in different fields, come and get fed, or greet visitors, or even say hello when the kids come out to play. That might not work for others who need a specific dog to stay in with the same sheep all the time.

 

I also have a greater tolerance for nonsense after seeing the finished product over and over, not viewing it as tragic if a young dog slightly injures a sheep on the way to 13 to 15 years of livestock attentiveness. I don't give the dogs a pass, but I don't let it affect me emotionally and I have ways to interfere with such inappropriate behavior right at the start. I don't have sheep that are particularly expensive, or sensitive to overenthusiastic handling, however, so I have this luxury when I've got the training of these dogs to take care of - and for me they are MORE important than the Border Collies.

 

I've raised several LGD pups and placed four in other working settings, and not one of them has killed anything or permanently injured anything, and I've only used weird stuff like a drag bar on my first pup. Probably luck, since I'm neither a good dog trainer nor a very attentive one (though I do have a specific method) - but you can't blame me for having warm fuzzies about raising the little fuzzies. I really had planned to start another at the end of this year, but I'll have to wait until I get some other projects taken care of first.

[Shoofly]

Gee Becca, sounds like there's a good market for trained ones. Put my name on the list if you go into business.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Gee Becca, sounds like there's a good market for trained ones. Put my name on the list if you go into business.

 

Nah, I'm a terrible business person. It's true that I placed all but one by word of mouth, though (and one mature fully trained dog). I'd probably be more than willing to raise a pup as a favor, or for trade or something, if the opportunity arose.

 

I guess it's just another one of those sheep-related tasks that I strangely love, like trimming hooves. And just like many stockdog trainers prefer to shape a dog to their own preferences, I'd rather raise a pup than mess around trying to re-train a dog that's already fixed in its habits. Even my old girl Lu - she was trained in the old notion that a guard dog should not have anything to do with people. She's much shyer than I like my dogs to be, but by five months old she was already past the age when one can easily fix that.

 

I had such fun doing it and met some really nice people. it was a good excuse to travel, too, lol. I placed one in FL and another in AL - both fun trips and paid for! The other one paid for a weekend at Hubert Bailey's trial, the first time I'd ever been. That was good to see, as after that I've never been tempted to sneer at a "little" field again.

 

That was the real payment for me, since I didn't really charge much more than top puppy price for these guys. They were what you'd call just "started." I was always honest that there was still some work ahead for the pups but everyone was always pretty happy.

 

Wow, my oldest "youngster" will be about eight and a half now. I really didn't need to think about that.

 

I'm sitting here watching the sheep graze on my back lawn, and waiting for it to cool down so I can sort lambs out.

[juliepoudrier]

Well the key, as has been stated here, is that you have to be around to do the training. Many of us have to work off the farm and so aren't around 24/7. Although I largely work from home, my attention has to be on my work (that is, if I want to keep my job), and not on a pup that might be wreaking havoc just out of sight. I don't think it has anything to do with being emotional about sheep. Damage to sheep is lost money and lost time, whether the damage comes from a predator or an overly enthusiastic young guardian. As I said, in those cases, a trained dog, even one with a few "holes" might be a better choice than a pup. At least you know the trained dog has the basics down, even if you do have to do some work to better fit your personal situation. For me the big thing is to have a dog that's reliable with lambs, etc., from the start, and a pup just isn't that (at least not if the posts I read on the working LGD group are any indication). Just as with all things, it comes down to personal preference.

 

J.

[Lenajo]

Having LGDs has made me understand a lot of farmers better. You know the type, they want a stockdog, but they have no interest in puppies or training of any form. They just want the cows/sheep in the pen, period. No hoopla. They aren't "dog men", they are livestock producers and the dog is a tool.

 

I don't like training LGDs at all so far. They are interesting dogs, but training them...well, I find it a chore. I want them to guard the sheep and not cost me cash and time in damaged livestock and property. No hoopla please.

[gail]

I have to disagree that you have to be home most of the time to raise an LGD pup. I do not believe that the owner/handler does the most, or the best job, at training the LGD pup - the sheep do. You have to put the pup in the right situations where he/she is going to learn appropriate behaviors. While some owner training can be beneficial and some owner intervention are required at times, with some dogs, it is not a requirement.

 

I got my last LGD pup at 4 months old and he is just over a year now. I picked him up at the airport after work and took the next day off and that's it. I work full time off the farm & am not there to raise a pup. I did not just throw him in a big field with a bunch of sheep, but I was not around to train him either. He was 9 months old when ewes started to lamb & we had one incident where he got too close to a ewe in labor. She chased him across a 5 acre field with the water bag banging behind her & he was very respectful of lambing ewes after that. Nothing I could have done would have improved this 1 minute training session by this ewe.

 

I have had more issues and problems that required intervention and time by me with adult LGDs that I have brought in than with pups.

 

My experiences may not be typical & there are all sorts of variabilities that are going to influence things, but do not assume that you have to be there to raise an LGD pup or that you will have no issues to work through with dogs that you acquire as adults (no matter how reliable they have been in their previous situation). You are changing everything about an adult LGDs life - where he lives, the sheep he lives with, what he eats, the people he sees, the predators he needs to guard against...I don't think you can assume that there will not be an adjustment period and training/re-training required.

 

gail

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

My experience lines up with Gail's. My first couple of dogs, I worked off the farm full time. The next couple, I spent a lot of time fooling around with rescue stuff - a lot of traveling, lots of time on the phone and computer.

 

My approach is to "claim" the sheep whenever possible. The dog is made very aware that his place is there with the sheep and he's welcome to do his job, what his instincts tell him to do, but he'd better respond to the sheep or he'll answer to me. He's not the boss of the sheep, I am.

 

You can do this during normal interactions when anyone would be in with the sheep anyway. It's just like training a dog largely during chore time.

 

It just depends on your comfort level. Ted, for instance, will probably be the last Border Collie pup I train. I enjoy the sense of accomplishment and I'm learning a ton, but I'm not confident in my ability to produce a finished dog that will do anybody any good. With the LGDs, on the other hand, I can look at a fuzzy puppy and see not only the fun, but all the annoying things and the dangers, and feel like it all leads somewhere worthwhile.

 

Please remember, getting a sense of what LGDs are all about from the LGD list is a bit like sitting in an urban emergency room to assess the overall health of the region. The people who get a pup and have very few problems aren't on there.

 

I'm not a breeder, I don't even know any breeders at this point. I just hate to hear these guys talked about like they are vicious creatures ready to kill your stock at a moment's notice, as if that was usual and the norm that can be expected. That shouldn't be true of well-bred, properly raised pups any more than it should be true that a good Border Collie will automatically take your sheep down and maul it when your back is turned.

[Lenajo]

You have to put the pup in the right situations where he/she is going to learn appropriate behaviors.

 

Perfectly correct, but the issue is here, and for most of us, when we got our first LGD is was because the feral dogs and/or coyotes has lamb on the menu The "right situation" for the pup was a well fenced paddock with dry ewes. The "reality situation" was a huge field with regular pup escapable farm fence and sheep who need guarding *right now*.

 

You comment of "I got my last LGD pup" says it all. You already had dogs, you already had the problem under control and you had experience in these dogs. This is not the situation for most of us or the op.

[juliepoudrier]

Becca,

I think you're reading an awful lot into the posts here if you think any of us are saying LGD pups are "vicious creatures ready to kill stock at a moment's notice." What I, at least, have been saying is that I would *prefer* to take on an experienced dog. Yes, I know there will be an adjustment period, but for *me* and apparently others, there is a greater willingness to help a trained dog through an adjustment period than to deal with a pup. As I've stated repeatedly, different folks have different preferences. That shouldn't be such a big deal. And FWIW, yes people post to the working LGD list with problems, but I think most of us are adult enough to figure out that people with problems will post, whereas those without may not. Although on the list I'm on, people frequently post "success" stories too. But just to clarify, I have also talked to plenty of people who have started young dogs and have even seen some of the training issues with my own eyes, so I'm not "sitting in an urban emergency room assessing the health of a region." I guess I don't see why you can state that you aren't interested in training a working border collie up from a pup after Ted, but can't concede that the same choice for an LGD is just as valid. The OP didn't say she wanted a pup; she asked if it was possible to find a trained dog. So why shove a pup down her throat?

 

J.

[Lenajo]

I just hate to hear these guys talked about like they are vicious creatures ready to kill your stock at a moment's notice, as if that was usual and the norm that can be expected. That shouldn't be true of well-bred, properly raised pups any more than it should be true that a good Border Collie will automatically take your sheep down and maul it when your back is turned.

 

Who said the were vicious? They are dogs, period, and unattended puppies do stupid stuff, and stupid stuff gets sheep or puppy hurt.

 

If you guys have time to stay around and "claim" the sheep (I'm really foggy on what this entails, so explain more please if you will) that's great, but some of us don't. A little roaming and misbehavior may be ok with some too, but on other farms roaming mostly equals dead, and misbehavior on valuable livestock (which in my experience with the, lets see, 5 pups I know of that people are raising over the last year) that means torns ears, dislocated hips, mauled lambs costs money. And frankly, farming is close enough to the bone as most of us want it without that.

 

I'm floored that the same group of posters who push hard for people who can afford it to get *at least* a started dog for their first herding dog, are the opposite when it comes to LGDs. What's the difference? Why suddenly have we reverted to the attitude of "only a puppy will raise up the way you want it" that we have so discouraged in working, pet, and rescue circles. What gives?

[gail]

I think some of the confusion comes from the fact that LGDs are not trained to guard like a BC is trained, like a Lab is trained or like any pet dog is trained. In fact, there is very little training by the owner involved. As with a BC, the behaviors are all instinctive. But, unlike a BC, who you will train to work with you and under command that sometimes goes against their instinct, you are not training a LGD to do anything.

 

I do not think my LGDs know any commands. They generally come when I call - but it is to me and my voice - it is not because they know what "come" means. The sheep train the dog. I believe that the dog must learn at an early age to respect the sheep. If it learns this, then the only hard spots are getting through potential adolescent behaviors. It is up to the owner to put a pup with sheep that will train it and monitor to be sure this is getting done. I would not advise putting a young pup or an adolescent dog with lambs until they have that respect. This is only encouraging inappropriate behavior - and it is not the fault of the dog. On the other hand, if a dog learns appropriate respect for sheep as a young pup, they may be able to go through adolescence with lambs and during lambing with no incident.

 

In terms of roaming, you will not train a dog not to roam. Your only options are to try to choose from a litter where the dam and sire do not tend to roam and to have good fences. Some well placed aversions to roaming may be necessary such as hot-wiring a gate or putting a drag on the dog to prevent jumping fences.

 

Similar to roaming, any "mauling", which really tends to be either playing or lack of respect for sheep, the owner may have to step in and deter the behavior. But, the best thing is just to prevent the behaviors from occurring at all.

 

If you plan on training your LGD, then you will have to be there 24/7 because otherwise the LGD will learn to respect you and not the sheep. For a dog that you expect to be on their own 99% of the time and to decide on their own how to protect the sheep, I don't want the dog to be dependent on me for how to behave.

 

gail