Difficult Dog

[Lenajo]

Eileen has a good point. Everything you "do" to a dog in normal training - even tossing something in his direction to widen him - has clear indications of who/what it's coming from and if you are a good trainier the "why" as well. A dog that gets corrected remotely when he is doing a lot of different behaviors can only assume that what is around him is doing it,and may or may not understand why. Maybe that's the sheep....hmmmm.....maybe walking towards the sheep... Since shock collars are usually used for distance work, what exactly is it that your dog is going to think is correcting him? Betcha it's not going to be what you want it to be.

 

And I'll be clear again. There is a time, and a place, for a shock collar. It's just not for stockdog training, or for that matter for any training of any kind. It's a punisher...which **might** be appropriate to correct a long time car chaser for example. It's best use is in situations where *nothing* possibly good needs to be retained from the behavior. Those are pretty rare.

 

We know from postings on this board by experienced people that to allow a Border Collie's mind to drift to "imaginary" prey (laser pointers) can make him permanently change his behavior patterns in a very dangerous manner. And thats a fun "imaginary"...think about the fall out of "imaginary" things that cause *pain*. Scary eh?

[Sue R]

I'm not sure it's appropriate to criticise a particular trainer here in public posts on this board, so perhaps the discussion should be done by PM.

 

I would say that I've met a number of HTC and felt that the ones (along with other breeds) that were trained without electronic collars, are the dogs that work in a manner that I prefer and the handlers that I would most like to emulate.

 

I am a friend of Gary's and love him and his wife dearly, but that doesn't mean that all his methods suit me and/or my dogs.

 

There are different breeds to suit not only different needs, but different handlers, and that's a good thing, in my novice opinion. And, no, I would never advocate the use of the electronic collar. I know that there are times that I am frustrated, and my dog is too far to take a correction, and (if a collar were on him), I would probably do something I would regret.

[bcnewe2]

you are right Sue. no need for bashing a particular trainer. Guess it was the method and the idea of load up that got me going.

BUt I came back to add and saw that Lenajo had hit on just what I was going to add. I think using any means possible that would work should be used on things like car chasing, or other behaviors that you never want to come back. But she summed up my thoughts nicely.

[painted_ponies]

I'm not sure it's appropriate to criticise a particular trainer here in public posts on this board, so perhaps the discussion should be done by PM.

 

I must respectfully disagree. If the trainer makes use of shock collars in his training materials which are publicly available, then I think public comment on his methods is fair. I've learned a lot from this thread and I'm glad it's posted.

[NRhodes]

I'll stand by the statement I made earlier- Any tool is only as good as the person using it.

 

To those of you who think a shock collar is like some cruel electric fence zap that the dog is going to run screaming from, you're mistaken, the first setting is barely a tingle. I can barely even feel it. The highest setting is comparable to a fence grounded to maybe 2.0 - Yes, I've tested the collar on myself. I've also an extensive experience with electric fence, there's miles of it here, and I can tell you that a fence at the end of the line pulling 8.0 knocked me flat on my back and it was twenty minutes before I could walk right. I don't think I've been bit with a fence hotter than that, yet. The collar on the highest setting? Shake my hand and go on. There's a very big difference. I go back to the analogy I used earlier of the rope, you can give a little tug or you can yank them off their feet it's up to you holding the line. So why not just use a rope then, you asked. I do use a rope, on certain occasions, but most of the terrain around here isn't fit for one. We have a weed called prickly red root, terribly spiny ground cover crap, it'll snag anything it can. I for one don't intend to have a dog tangled and drug to death or it's neck broke.

 

To this quote from bcnewe's post "I read another part about teaching the dog to come off it's stock" Reread my post. Did I say anything about teaching the dog to come off it's stock with the collar? Nope. Here, I'll quote myself "I use it generally when it comes to the point that the dog knows something (example: that'll do) and chooses to ignore the command in some instances"

 

To Lenajo, please reread my post. I never accused you of abusing a dog so don't be stating I did. Re: selling collars with pups, in that context it doesn't surprise me that Gary would promote the collars through his dogs. He's a dealer for Tritronics, selling collars earns a paycheck.

 

Re: the dog and the crate/load up demo in the 'Using the Remote Trainer' video. Refer again, to one of my previous posts, in which I state that I didn't much care for the demo done by the Tritronics representative, Jim something or other, it was poorly explained I thought. Your inciting description of the dog wailing and bucking is grossly inaccurate. I reviewed the video just to make sure I didn't misremember details. The dog never 'wails,' it does however pull against the rope it's on the first two times he's pulled into the crate with it. Is the dog being hurt or abused by the shock collar? No. Made uncomfortable? Yes. It is clearly stated the collar is on the lowest setting, the Jim fellow pushes the button when he gives the command for the dog to 'load up' making the dog uncomfortable so it moves, when the dog moves into the crate he releases the button as reward. Is that 'out of the blue' ? Pft, heck no, the dog is going to associate the discomfort with what you're saying, it's going to figure out real quick what response it should do to make your voice and the discomfort quit. Would the dog fight the rope pulling him into a strange box without the collar being used? I imagine it would. Here's another comment about the video- think about how long ago this was made. At the time it was made the collar and the techniques of using it were a new and evolving thing. Heck, look at those old dinosaurs they're using, you have to change plugs in the collar to change intensity settings.

 

Re: This statement "Then he laughed and joked about how collar savvy the dog was. " Well yes, a dog learns when you can enforce a command and when you can't. If you've used a stick to push the dog off the stock what happens when you don't have the stick and the dog runs in? Shall we call that dog 'stick savvy' haha. Probably though, when you were using that stick you also used verbal commands. If your timing of the verbal command + stick was correct when you don't have the stick and you use the verbal the dog will remember that it should be getting out or that after the verbal it will encounter the stick making it get out. So the dog responds before the correction. Same thing with the collar---

 

here's addressing the continued 'out of the blue' comments. Again, I will say, if you're just shocking the dog when it does something wrong you aren't using the collar as a correction but instead as a punishment. The shock, like the stick, should be preceded with either a verbal command or a warning. Or command, warning, correction, aye, just like the previous example of 'out' and the stick. The whole idea is that the dog will associate you with the discomfort at it's neck, that you can pull on that rope no matter how close or how far, that you don't have to physically grab the dog to get a hold of it.

 

Can't you people see that the issue is not the shock collar? The issue is misuse of the shock collar. No, instead jump up and scream that 'shock collars are cruel and abusive along with the people who use them'. Personally, I find the whole thing ridiculous.

 

I'm probably leaving out replies to some statements/people but I'm really tired, it's late, and I have to milk in a few hours.

[Sue R]

Sally - I see your point but I think that it is not considered appropriate to do so. I think that there is nothing wrong with pointing out that someone endorses/uses a particular method but I think the guidelines indicate that individuals should not be discussed to any extent. I think we can easily discuss principles without resorting to naming names, and accomplish the same goals. However, I may be wrong.

 

I, personally, don't see anything wrong with folks recommending (or not) particular breeders, trainers, techniques, etc., but I do understand that what goes out in a public forum may not be realistic, and yet may be believed by many. I just think we need to be discrete and take details private rather than public if there is a need to discuss someone to any extent.

 

I may be wrong entirely. I do think folks have a right to know and make educated choices, but I'm not sure how far taking that is considered reasonable here.

 

If a dog "requires" an electronic collar to be trained, he/she's not a dog I'd want to have. I agree that traditional breeding and use of Border Collies did not produce a dog that required or was suited to such means. I'm not convinced that current breeding in some circles that produces such dogs is a good thing. A terrific dog can be produced and trained that doesn't need a collar.

 

I think a person can use a collar responsibly and humanely, just as a person can train without and not be responsible or humane. Whether it's good training or not, I can't judge, not having the experience to know. But I choose to not use one, period. I don't believe a collar provides any help with a dog's mind, and the mind is the important part of the dog. You have to allow a dog to think, not to fear. I'm having to overcome that in my own dog's training, and it's not easy.

 

Like I said, I've seen collar-trained dogs that did much, much better (in my opinion) once they were trained by alternative, intelligent methods. I've seen collar-trained gundogs and I don't like what I see in them when they are in a non-hunting situation (which is the only place I've interacted with them). They do appear to be waiting for that "bolt out of the blue".