cattle versus sheep, a question of style

[kelpiegirl]

Hi everyone

Those who work cattle and sheep, or just one or the other, can you enlighten me as to the differences in the dog- that is, what sort of style is and is not seen in working each species?

 

Do dogs who are better on cattle have less eye- or do they use it, or not, depending on the animal?

 

Thanks

Julie

[juliepoudrier]

There are probably others more qualified to answer than me, but in my experience first the dog has to be *willing* to work cattle, and not all good sheepdogs are. I think the dog that works both species needs to be willing to use less eye on cattle and also needs to be willing to give cattle more space and time to think (these aren't bad attributes for working sheep, but lack thereof can be a real problem on cattle). In my experience, a dog with a lot of eye really needs to attenuate it to work cattle (in fact, when I was working Twist, who has a lot of eye, on cattle more I had several folks mention to me that they'd noticed I'd freed her flanks up--it was because she had to rely less on eye to work the cattle we were working). The dog also needs to be a bit freer behind as cattle don't clump like sheep and so the dog needs to be willing to flank to tuck in the sides while still maintaining forward motion. Twist's normal inclination would be to work out to the side on sheep to use her eye to influence the lead sheep, but she learned that didn't really work with cattle, and so she had to adjust her style to stay behind and flank to keep the stragglers from breaking off. (Interestingly, most of the old-timers I know in this part of the world who work cattle routinely--that is, not as trial practice--especially in larger groups, don't use just one dog, they use at least two or more, the reasoning being that one dog can push from behind and the other two can manage the sides, or with two, each can push and cover a side. I don't know if the same is true in other parts of the country.) Running cattle are harder to stop than running sheep so the dog that doesn't incite cattle to run is an asset. For dogs working either species, calm, efficient control is what works best.

 

J.

[stockdogranch]

I'll agree with everything Julie said...starting with willingness to work cattle--like all stockwork, you just can't make 'em if they don't want to. It's not so much that the cattle are bigger (even thought they are), it's more a case of the cattle have more attitude, and the dogs seem to sense it right away. I've seen a number of pups or even older dogs who have watched the calves being worked, get loose and dash out to the calves--on a mission. But they get within 20 feet or so, and decide to come back. If they had approached sheep, the chase would have been on. Because of this attitude, dogs generally have work quite a bit closer in to cattle than to sheep in order to convince the cattle to move (sheep are generally just more willing, even range ewes). But, as Julie points out, they need to know when to back off, or be willing to take a command that tells them to back off. They also really have to have both a head and a heel bite; for the heel, really low is great. For the nose, many youngsters start with a fly-by cheap shot as they're learning, but the good 'uns will mature into a really nice stand there face-to-face (almost touching), holding ground, then, when the cow/calf doesn't move, a solid grip then release on the nose, while still holding ground. Because cattle don't move like sheep, as Julie points out--they tend to string out a whole lot more, or go their individual ways a lot, the dog tends to be freer moving, wearing a lot more than on sheep. On sheep, I want the dog walking calmly behind in pretty much a straight line (wherever the balance may be), while with cattle, a fair amount of wearing is what's needed. Cattle don't see the dog when it is directly behind them, which makes some wearing necessary. So, to my way of thinking, the dog really has to think a bit more for itself to handle cattle properly. Every time one strays away a bit, I don't give a flank command, I just expect the dog to cover it and keep it tucked into the group. The dog is almost always working to keep the group together, as well as moving it. I also always let the dog decide when it needs to hit a head or a heel--it's much closer to the stock than I am, so I figure it's reading their relationship better than I am. So I leave hits to the dog's discretion (if I'm working a pup that wants to get carried away, I use a take time or down to keep it from hitting inappropriately or when it's not necessary).

 

A lot of sheepdog folks think dogs who work cattle are always gripping unnecessarily, and that working cattle is a real rodeo, with no finesse. Way wrong. As Julie points out, calm, steady work is always best. There's just a different kind of finesse to working cattle than with sheep. Cattle think differently and move differently, and the handler and dog must adapt. Cattle don't hold lines like sheep do. And, of course, another major difference is that the dog working cattle IS going to get kicked at some point.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

>>A lot of sheepdog folks think dogs who work cattle are always gripping unnecessarily, and that working cattle is a real rodeo, with no finesse. Way wrong<<

 

So true, I run in both venues. Any dog that is gripping unnecessarily is gonna get the short end of the stick.....usually a RT or cattle will fight. Some of the best runs are quiet, control of the stock.

 

Anna....Trubble (?) ran in Bonina with Judy and she was AWESOME....talk about good, quiet control on cattle.

 

The more you rile up the cattles, the saying "Going to Hell in a handbasket" sure rings true.

 

Diane

[Little Bo Boop]

Maybe Red Oliver will weigh in on this :-) I think he posts some times on here...and he is the best. Runs both sheep and cattle with the same dogs...he's pretty amazing!

[Guest pax]

You know how good and determined Starr is....

 

A while back my neighbour had a few calves get to wandering in my front yard.

 

I went outside to see what the ruckus was, and Starr went with me.

 

Well, I got out on the front porch and Starr and I took a good look at these calves running around and I looked down at her and she looked up at me, and then, with absolutely no if ands or buts, she told me, "I am a sheep dog. You're on your own" and she went back into the house.

 

[stockdogranch]

 

THANKS for the early morning laugh!!! Actually, that is exactly the response I have seen a number of times. And, FWIW, every now and then when I insist Riddle compete at a sheep trial, her response is similar, "Excuse me--I am a COW dog!"

 

 

Anna

[Sue R]

I find it interesting, and telling about the nature of a dog, that Celt (who is probably NOT really tempermentally suited to being a cow dog, but rather a dog that would be better suited to light but not flighty sheep) is all about working cattle and especially black ones. I think it's because he grew up on our farm, where we have Angus.

 

I've sat at a trial with Celt and he could see both sheep on the trial field and cattle in a nearby field, and his attention was all on the cattle while they were in sight. They are "his" stock. Take the cattle out of the picture, and he is all about the sheep.

 

The cattle are a job, and they are "his" job, and he's determined to do his best to get the job done even though he suffers from a lack of confidence and power. Sometimes it breaks my heart to see him try and become so anxious but then, when he succeeds (sometimes with some help from me or another dog), his sense of accomplishment and satisfaction is obvious. And he's absolutely ready to go and do the job the next time it's needed.